Return to Yelnia Stare

[Erik Springelkamp]

Recently I have been playing this scenario with a new recruit for Combat Mission, to give him an attack scenario where he would have a good chance of winning. Well he lost totally, but learned a lot.

Then I played it against the AI as Russian to check that it _is_ winnable, managing my infantery according to the JasonC book, and I managed a total victory in turn 27 (out of 25+), with little casualties.

However, my friend followed another method against the AI: select everything in turn one and order a collective advance to the other side of the map.

This tactic secures a total victory in turn 15, with hardly more casualties then the carefully excersized infantery manoevres. I feel kind of desillusioned.

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Erik Springelkamp:

However, my friend followed another method against the AI: select everything in turn one and order a collective advance to the other side of the map.

This tactic secures a total victory in turn 15, with hardly more casualties then the carefully excersized infantery manoevres. I feel kind of desillusioned.

Did you try out the same tactic on any other scenario?

[Erik Springelkamp]

Yes

[Carl Puppchen]

Sometimes you have to play vs. the AI because you don't have an opponent - I do it myself.

But against a skilled human this is a very difficult scenario for the Germans. The Russians have tanks that are basically invulnerable to German AT fire as long as they don't creep within satchel charge range and, unlike the Russians in real life, a skilled player will use combined arms tactics with some infantry moving up and overwatch and as soon as the Germans open up they will be pulverized by 76mm HE fire and MG fire that they can't silence.

This is a very hard and frustrating game to play as the Germans. I am not saying that someone on this message board won't challenge and say they played it as Germans vs. a human and won in a walk over but against a Human my opinion is that this is an extremely hard scenario to win.

[JasonC]

It is not hard it is impossible. Against competent Russian play there is no one on earth who could win as the Germans. The tanks are monsters. The infantry alone would be enough, played correctly. Which means all heavy weapons overwatching effectively, not thrown away while moving. Then full use of approach cover in short advance drills to get whole companies of infantry to full ID range.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I think it would be hard for me with just the infantry, given the time limit.

I played with extreme fog of war, and then the German MGs are very hard to ID, and play havoc with the advance, especially on the recruits.

I used most of my heavy weapons for area fire on the suspected positions to repress them a little bit, but they keep on firing once and a while and everytime they pin some squad or worse.

Then it takes some turns to kill the forward Germans, before you get within ID range of the MG's.

I used the tanks in a modest support role, not outadvancing the infantery, pretending not to know that the Germans had nothing to kill them, but they speeded up the killing just enough I think.

Maybe one should use the artillery in turn 1 on one of the wooded areas instead of suspending it till turn ten as I did, when I expected it to assist the final closing phase.

When you rush the tanks into the German lines from the start then it is quickly over indeed. In fact that's what is happening in the "one order" tactics: the tanks do all the work, and later the infantery recovers from a terrible suppressed state and takes the woods.

[JasonC]

With infantry alone, you don't waste the overwatch on area fire at un-IDed targets. Save it. Pairs of 50mm mortars fire at any target with a full ID (real location rather than sound). MMGs fire by entire platoons at those. One MMG stays on each unit that breaks. And if a unit goes heads down again (turns into a flag), you leave an MMG area firing at the former location to prevent rally. A few of the overwatch teams can move forward small amounts to get better LOS, but only after infantry has reached ID range (mortars are fire magnets otherwise, and MMGs shot while moving react poorly - too slow to get to cover).

The arty is so weak you can map fire it on turn 3 or so, doesn't really matter. Don't expect it to do much. Don't save it for late, it is more important to avoid shorts scaring your too-touchy men while moving, than to be right behind the shells. The direct fire overwatch is going to do the suppression work at contact, anyway.

With the infantry, keep the conscripts back in cover for a long time. Behind even the weapons. And leave the battalion HQ and at a company HQ with them, one with good command ability (to reduce their command delays). They are your last wave, not your first. They can move forward once enemies are suppressed. Move to contact is the safest. Human wave can be used to ram them into cover 150-200m from the enemy, but not on top of them. All this is after the greens have already found and fixed 'em, as weight and endurance behind the attack. They come in with full ammo against already scattered guys, that is the idea. Don't waste them early, they won't accomplish a third as much.

The two green companies conduct the actual advance. They use 2 by 2 formations, not lines, staying close to their HQs. Keep the attack deep and do not bunch up. Every spot with even 50% cover should have one squad in it, including shellholes. It is easier to find routes 2 units wide than 4, another reason to use 2 by 2 platoon formations. Even those should have other platoons behind them, often several. The whole thing can easily be 6 ranks deep or more - and I am talking about just the two green companies, not the weapons and conscripts waiting behind them.

The movement drill is short advance (40-70m) to the next bit of cover, then stationary. Hide at first at the end of each waypoint, until you think you are getting close. 250m 180 degree forward covered arcs. Once those are over places you think defenders might be, stop hiding at the end of each waypoint. A platoon with a squad in red morale does not stop and wait for it to rally, it keeps going. Squads pinned remain stationary (sneak to nearest cover if absolutely in the open, else void any more orders).

Company HQs sweep up the guys left behind and form new platoons of them as they rally.

As soon as there are full IDs, the forward edge goes stationary in 50% cover and fires back, along with the overwatch. Wreck that set. Then step out again. Guys farther back close up by short advances in the meantime, but no bunching up. Always stay at least 14m apart. 25m is better but not always possible in this one. Better to hang back 1-2 minutes than overcrowd the forward cover.

Do not rush. Give your firepower time to melt the defenders seen. It will, they can't remotely stand up to that many 50mms in pairs pinning them, MMGs preventing rally, and whole companies at 200-250m (spot range) plus extra MMGs on the newest, heads up guys. They reveal themselves a few at a time and break after a mintue to two of fire. Each set will pin or break somebody, doesn't matter. You trade through them, shuffle up, and your depth will outlast them easily.

As for the few HMGs while they are still sound, they will pin things but they cannot stop two whole companies using advance drills and all available cover. You should make 50m per minute average, in the worst periods about 25m per minute. It does not take long to close to ID range, it just seems like it because they are doing all the shooting. Don't panic over it, don't blow ammo on area fire, don't stop, and don't run. Just advance, and advance, and advance, whoever has any morale that instant.

With the tanks it is so easy even the above is almost unnecessary. They blow up anything spotted and can even help get spots if you drive 1-2 forward, while the rest hang back in the middle of the "green horde".

[stoat]

It's been a while since I played this one last. I set my heavy weapons up in overwatch positions within cover. I targeted my artillery on the far right flag for turn one. I used the company with some regulars in it (A, I think) to move up the right flank. Company B and the tanks provide fire support from the center. Company C was in reserve to human wave an objective if I was to get held up.

After running into and then suppressing two machine guns, A Company reached the trees with only a few casualties. They cleared this area, then proceeded to flank the next two objectives in succession, with close in tank support, and covering fire from the two other companies and heavy weapons.

I really didn't utilize the conscript company and they ended up with only 2 or 3 casualties caused.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Where I had some problems with moving in squares or columns, is when the forward squad gets pinned, and I want the backward to advance. Do I join the forward squad then they are stacked and vulnerable, but when I wait for the front guys to get moving again I slow down. And the cover patches are not everywhere enough in numbers to pass them sidewards.

But the principle of box movement: does the back guy take over point? How do I keep the box formation?

And a slight problem was the opening defence artillery routed a platoon of regulars/greens in turn 1.

On the other hand the conscripts took the left flag all by themselves, using move to contacts and small human waves, but breaking 2 of the 3 platoons in the process.

[JasonC]

When the forward squads are pinned they remain stationary, yes. The rear ones move between them and past them. If you have proper interval there is room for that. They will pass within 15m or so, but not for long. Their next waypoint doesn't have to be cover, it can be open to get between them correctly, followed by a second waypoint toward the next spot of cover, farther ahead.

If they make the whole move they are the new point. Like as not they draw fire instead, go to ground prematurely. S'ok. The forward squads rally in the meantime if the fire comes off them. The point of alternating movements is to make the enemy shift his fire, spread it over too many squads and minutes. Giving each one time to rally, some of the time.

Think about it in whole frontage terms. Every 25m or so along the whole frontage, somebody is trying to advance. Half of them or so are at the leading edge. The whole formation will caterpillar in, in little baby steps by some of its "feet". It is not a stiff rod trying to keep station. It is more like an ooze.

As for arty, just don't bunch up. He can spend shells to get pins and some breaks, sure. But you won't run out of rally, and he will run out of shells, as long as a module only temporarily messes up a platoon, not more. The sooner he fires the more time you have to rally after, before contact with his infantry. Eat his shells, absorb his MG ammo, take the pain and keep going with everyone else. Anybody too out of it, give no task except rally.

[RockinHarry]

I appeared to have missed this one! Is that still available for downlaod somewhere? ..or can any of my PBEM buddies send it to my email?

Would like to give this an analysis.

[Jim1954]

Harry, it is one of the scenarios that are in the CMBB download demo.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Jim1954:

Harry, it is one of the scenarios that are in the CMBB download demo.

Hm..it wasn´t on the CDV CD I have!? :confused: Can you email it to me please?

[Jim1954]

I'll do it tonight when I get home. There also was another one for CMBB and 2 for the CMAK one too. I'll send them all.

IIRC none of these demo scenarios were included on the cdv 1.03 ver of cmbb nor on the 1.02 cmak.

[jtcm]

Can the "column in depth" infy attack be beaten by enfilade fire ? I mean assets firing "from left to right", across the axis of advance, from behind LOS blocks, with interlocking "you scratch my back, i scratch yours" fields of fire to prevent the enemy from just marching up to the LOS block. In other words, keyholed HMGs, with a field of fire across the enemy line of march-- thus avoiding the massing of fire by overwatch elements.

[Erik Springelkamp]

If there are forward flanks, you would typically go for the flanks first before advancing through the center I guess, when advancing over a broad front.

[Jim1954]

Headed your way Harry.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Jim1954:

Headed your way Harry.

Thank you very much Jim! File received.

[JasonC]

jtcm - in real life, interlocking fire schemes for ranged weapons were indeed meant to prevent any too-local superiority from penetrating a position by just overwhelming the defenders along a single narrow route. One solution to that is a wider overall attack with multiple points of entry, as it were. But that can multiply chances of failure. Many earlier WW I infantry attacks failed in that manner, when a few MGs in a sector that held out best stopped advances in the adjacent sectors.

The school solution is to ID enemy strongpoints as quickly as possible and KO, neutralise, or blind only those needed to pass through the sector of main effort. Feints and holding attacks try to conceal where that is. Advanced detachments ahead of the main body try to KO listening posts and ID firing positions before the main body arrives.

In CM it is hard to get an interlock fire defense to work because the sector width is always limited, with no supporting fire available from off the map edges. You can approximate it with TRP arty, which local attacker strength cannot neutralize. But ammo won't last forever. You can also try resting flanks on truly impassible terrain (not open, water e.g.), or serious obstacles (long continuous wire belts with MGs behind them, serious AP minefields in chains with some scattered tiles and subchains beyond the first). In scenarios those can realistically appear. In point-competitive QBs they usually don't pay for themselves.

There are two counters that do work. You can create an obstacle barrier in some chosen strong location, and make it a ranged fire center. Direct attack stopped by obstacles. The heavy weapons, especially ones stealthy at range, then interdict any approach to neighboring areas. HMGs, light flak, mortars, FOs, ATRs - all reach out to influence areas away from the obstacles, while the obstacles prevent any easy direct attack, close enough for spots.

The other is to go to a reverse slope defense, or combine that with the previous. Ground in the way tries to cut off the overwatch fires. The problem is, that usually lets the enemy infantry get close. If he has infantry numbers he can frequently "exchange off" through you. Also, once located a reverse slope defense can be countered by a turning movements away from its main strength, or by large FOs dropping on the strong area before cresting together.

But even with such counters possible, those methods are more effective than just an open, everybody up and ready to shoot, never let 'em get close, "open" defense. (Which is all the Germans are equipped for in Yelnia, really - no obstacles, limited heavy weapons, etc). Open defenses are readily countered by integrated attacker firepower, as long as he knows what he is doing and takes his time about it.