Trommelfeuer Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 M3 "General Lees" in Vyazma. In general, the Russians met the M3 tank without any delight. Having a large silhouette, with extremely poor passableness on Russian roads, with the relatively weak engine (only 340 h.p. while T-34-76 had 450 h.p. engine), besides sensitive to fuel and oil marks, this tank didn't cause any delight at the Soviet tankeers, but the most important drawback was its rubber-metal tracks. During a battle the rubber burned out and tracks collapsed. As a result - tank become immobilized. The Russian tankeers called them as "Grave for six brothers". As an example here is the official report from 134th Tank Regiment commander: "The American tanks in sands works extremely bad, their tracks are continuously falls, tanks sink in the sands, that's why these tanks are so slow. With shooting on the enemy tanks, because of 75 mm gun mounted in a mask, instead of turret, we are forced to turn tank to the left and right, so it quickly sink in the sands and cause many problems during gunfire".Question * Why didn't the russians replace the rubber-metal tracks with metal tracks ? Too complicated ? sources: * victory.rusarchives.ru - The Allies - russian photo archive. * Battlefield ru - Lend-Lease Aid Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 To replace the tracks on their own wouldn't make much sense. Cost time and money to manufacture steel tracks from sratch I owuld think. allbesPatrick 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 It gives you an idea of the difference between the Eastern Front and the Western Desert where the Lee/Grant was initially introduced as a savior! I must admit it would've been quite a come-down for a tanker to transition from a KV regiment to Lees. At least the tank pictured has the full-length Sherman cannon. Look on the bow. You can just see the muzzle-end of the dual embedded .30 cal. Brownning mgs. We could have a whole discussion on the tactical utility (or lack thereof) of these things. The interesting thing is after receiving Lees as Lend-Lease the Russian started putting embedded bow mgs into their new designs, including the IS-2, T-44, and even the T-54! [ March 08, 2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aco4bn187inf Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Great photo. Note the teeth attached to the tracks, probably for extra traction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 11, 2004 Author Share Posted March 11, 2004 Some more nice photos: M3 "Lee" ( Hmm, did they paint the "Balkenkreuz" on their "Lee" to confuse the enemy or is this really a "Lee" in german service ? ) Tons of captured russian equipment, two Lend - Lease M3 A3 ( or M3 A5 ? ) "Lee" tanks in the middle. ( I wonder what is written on the turrets...? ) source: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/ Regards, Sven [ March 11, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Originally posted by Trommelfeuer: ( Hmm, did they paint the "Balkenkreuz" on their "Lee" to confuse the enemy or is this really a "Lee" in german service ? ) Isn't that the rear of the tank? From what I read, during the battle of Kursk the Germans tried to fool Soviets by moving captured T-34's in front of their armor columns when maneuvering in the darkness. Perhaps the same with Lee's? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 Isn't that the rear of the tank? From what I read, during the battle of Kursk the Germans tried to fool Soviets by moving captured T-34's in front of their armor columns when maneuvering in the darkness. Perhaps the same with Lee's?Maybe...but I really don't know... But Apropos Kursk... Could this photo be a shot out of the M3 A5 driver's hatch during the Kursk battle...? ( ...is that a Knocked out Panzer III M or L ? ) source: http://www.cnw.mk.ua/weapons Regards, Sven [ March 11, 2004, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 ( ...is that a Knocked out Panzer III M or L ? )That would be a Panzer V "Panther", unless there was a little known modification to Pz III giving it wider tracks and a sloped glacis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 Aye, O.K. now as you have written it, I must admit that it doesn't look at all like a Panzer III ... but what about the tank in front ? Is it a M3 A5 or is it perhaps a SU-..mm ? Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 First of all, I don't think that picture is from the Kursk battles. Kursk took place in the middle of summer, and that looks like snow on the ground and on the Panther's front Glacis to me. Snow + Panther means at least winter of 1943, and possibly later. As far as the AFV the picture was taken from, As a quick rough guess I would say SU-85 or SU-100. Both had a horseshoe shaped driver's hatch in roughly the position the photo appears to have been taken from. I don't think the ISUs had this hatch, and the shape and length of the barrel rules out an SU-122. Definitely not an M3, though. AFAIK, none of the various models of the M3 had a hatch of that shape in such a position on the hull. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />( ...is that a Knocked out Panzer III M or L ? )That would be a Panzer V "Panther", unless there was a little known modification to Pz III giving it wider tracks and a sloped glacis </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 Eieiei......yo know...I was in the "General Lee - Mood", and the name of the image is kursk.jpg...and it was late in the evening and...Ah..shame on me... Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 "I would say SU-85 or SU-100." By Jove, I think he's got it! I was wracking my brain trying to think what gun would project that far forward from from the hatch and it just wasn't coming to me. Now that you mention it it does indeed look like a SU-85 (I'd imagine that the gun would be a bit stouter on a SU-100). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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