Z-warfare How is the Kursk scenario going?

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

Have finished moving house now, so thought I would catch up with you regarding progress.

Have you got the map sorted out yet?

cheers

[z-warfare]

Hey hey, i haven't done anything for the past while. I have a kinda sketchy operation i did before i got serious about the research, and haven't got anything since that. I guess I might as well put it up on the proving grounds, but it's not really what the whole concept ought to be.

[Aragorn2002]

Well, if you're not going to finish it, you might as well post it, yes please.

[Der Alte Fritz]

What are the problems do you think?

When I looked at it, i was able to map out a slice of the 375th Rifle Divs position quite accurately but the whole position was about 6km deep. So this would mean a pretty long winded scenario as there seemed to be quite a lot of space in between the individual positions. So I was torn between that option and one of a long thin battle map, say 1.5km by 4km on which a series of 4 battles was fought one for each position. This latter approach would cut out the 'dead ground' between the positions. What are your thoughts?

[z-warfare]

Hey there, I put up what I have at http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=1335

"Second Belt"

(6 battles, 40 turns fixed each, starts at night and night falls every 4 battles.)

Bear in mind that I made it before the idea of making it historical and using the 375th came up... I think that would make a very good, vaguely similar operation. Incidentally, I think 6km length is a good size, but maybe that might need more battles than just 4. I have this idea in my head that the Soviet reinforcements should arrive at night.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Great

I will have a look this weekend.

cheers

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

Had a look at the operation. Looks good but the force density seems too low. Taking the 375th position, regimental positions seem to be around 4km wide with 2 bn in the front line and 1 in the second in battalion strongpoints. So for the 1247th Regt at the southern most part of the line, we can see strongpoints number 5 and 6 each about 1.5km wide and 1km deep, in a line of 4km. So I think your map should have a single battalion position in the first line with some space on either side? This should have 8 76 ZIS3, 2 76 How and 8 45 ATG and 27 ATR. Then 1.5km behind that another position in a village with a company dug in. To one side there is a big AT strongpoint No 1 with 20 ZIS3 and 23 ATR so allow about half of that operating on this battalions frontage. Behind that another 2 km is another village with another company and strongpoint No7 with 12 ZIS3 and 8 ATR and 1 km behind that is AT strongpoint No3 with 8 ZIS3. This is where the 96th Independent Tank Bde is based 61 T-34 and there is a mobile AT gun bn ready to move into position to counter German tank breakthroughs. Likewise a pioneer company ready to lay mines in the path of any breakthrough (perhaps using DC to represent these?). Artillery in the position is the 3/93rd and 1/93rd artillery battalions with 122mm howitzers. Also in the remainder of the regts position to the south, they have 263rd heavy mortar bn with 120mm mortars who could help our battalion out.

So quite a lot of firepower in a 2km by 6km deep slice of a Kursk position! One way to limit this is to have the terrain as a series of "humps" about 2km apart, with the AT gun positions in the valley so that the 45mm engage at 400m and the 76mm further back engage at 800m. When the Germans come over the crest they are enaged at the right range by the Ai.

Have done a map laying this all out so can post it on TPG if you want.

cheers

[z-warfare]

Yeah the thing I did had nothing to do with the 375th... it begs the question what a 'typical' area at Kursk was. Plus mine has Panthers, yet is oriented east-west, etc, etc...

I'd love to have a look at your map, please post!

[Der Alte Fritz]

I use the 375th because it has really detailed maps of its position.

I must admit that the 1247th position is a bit stronger than the rest of the regts but that was because it sat on a road. The 1243th to the north of the line was more typical with a battalion strongpoint with 4 76mm ZIS3 4 76mm Inf Gun 8 45mm and 18 ATR behind that is AT position 2 with 4 ZIS3 and 4 45mm and a mobile battalion of the 1/193rd with 76mmZIS3 and another battalion of the 2/93rd with 122mm How in the village to one side. So two "lines" rather than "three" but you could have the Tank Brigade coming along as the 3rd line.

Will post the map in a couple of days

cheers

[Der Alte Fritz]

[ August 19, 2007, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Der Alte Fritz ]

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

Have posted my operation at TPG as "Kursk Front Line 375th Rifle Division".

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=1340

Have used the 1st Bn 1243rd Rifle Regt as the model as they are on the far west of the 375th position. These guys held off Totenkopfs attack and ensured that the German advanced was on a narrow front. The remnants of the 52nd Rifle Division to the west fell back on this position. 52nd RD was attacked by most of 2nd SS Panzer Corps. Further to the west 67th RD was attacked by GD and the Panther Brigade. So this section of front would have similar terrain and defences to the one I have depicted.

One point is that the 1243rd RR was obviously on a strong position as it had few AT strongpoints or Regimental AT assets and had all three Bn in the front line. The other two Regts of the division only had two Bn in the front line and about double the AT assets.

Anyway let me know what you think.

cheers

[z-warfare]

Sounds great! Checking it out now.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

My experience was quite good as I used about half Totenkopfs strength in tanks and artillery and two infantry Bn for the attack.

Crossing the river was time consuming because the tanks could not get forward because of the mines and the infantry could not clear the mines because of the machine guns. Mine fields claimed a few tanks as the pioneers did not clear all the mines in the path due to the anti personnel mines. Got the infantry over thwe wire and the tanks over the river by about move 30. Started to chew up the Soviet front line and destroyed most of company A. But a TH killed a Tiger. Got to the crest and the infantry was pinned down by fire from Company B in the rear and Company C on the left flank. Tanks moved up to silence the Soviet infantry.

When the tanks crossed the crest they were engaged by all the AT guns and many had flanking fire positions. The first platoon and a Tiger was totally destroyed. The rest of the tanks came over in a rush and a fire fight started. Most of the Pz4 were killed and just two Tigers left by the end of the first game.

The infantry were reinforced by an armoured company and the Pz3s. These and recovered Tigers finally crushed the remaining two infantry companies and AT guns. Moved forward to the next crest where a firefight developed with the AT strongpoint and the mobile AT guns position. Again lost some Tigers to good flanks shots and the Pz3 had to hide below the ridgeline. Finally overwhelmed the strongpoint and moved forward but Germans now so low on tanks did not bother with final games. Shows that you really need to husband your strength as Germans as the attrition rate of this position is quite high.

[ September 01, 2007, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Der Alte Fritz ]