Watson & Crick Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Has anyone ever had a plane strafe and knockout your anti-tank guns? In a battle against the AI, a Russian plane spotted my AT guns firing and took a strafing run at each and causing them to be abandoned with no casualties. The guns were placed in trees (76 mm captured Russian gun) and scattered trees (88 mm flak). Conditions were a clear day in June. I can understand why the AT crew decided to abandon. I'm curious, is this spotting realistic? The same "eagle-eye" ace pilot also proceded to strafe his own troops, routing them, and dropped a bomb at a Russian tank (missed I think). [ September 18, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Watson & Crick ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Its not really realistic... unfortunately there is nothing to do about it now... not until the next game engine at least... just take comfort in that it happens to almost everyone else too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 This is a difficult thing to get hard data on - AFAIK, there is no data on how many ATG crews were 'driven off' their guns by strafing attacks. However, based on what I have read, strafing attacks in general had a pretty demoralizing effect, even on troops in well dug-in positions. It's not too surprising to me that a gun crew would abandon its gun under direct strafing attack, even if no one in the crew had been wounded yet and the gun was still functional. However, there are two related issues in CM tend to make the type of strafing attack you describe a bit unrealistic in CM: (1) in certain situations, ATGs seem to be a little bit too easily spotted by air assets. Briefly, it seems that once an airplane shows up, it *must* see and attack something. If nothing obvious like a vehicle on a road or troops moving though the open is around, the airplane will begin to attack less spottable targets, including hidden guns. I have even seen airplanes attack troops hidden in woods, which strikes me as an extremely difficult target to see from the air. What is probably needed is some sort of routine that allows air assets to show up and have a chance of spotting nothing, in which case they would loiter for a few turns (still looking for something to attack), and then fly off to look for targets elsewhere. (2) At present, crews driven off ATGs or other heavy weapons can't re-man their guns once the attack has passed. IRL, it was quite common for crews to temporarily abandon weapons and then reman them once the immediate danger had passed. Such remanning should not be too easy to accomplish - it should take time to rally the crew and get them back to the gun, but it should be possible. So, assuming that a plane manages to spot a gun and strafes it, I do not find it unrealistic at all that the gun crew might at least temporarily abandon the gun. What I find unrealistic in CM is that the plane spots the gun in the first place, and also that the crew can't eventually remann the gun given enough time. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I think YD has it about right. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson & Crick Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 Originally posted by YankeeDog: (1) in certain situations, ATGs seem to be a little bit too easily spotted by air assets. Briefly, it seems that once an airplane shows up, it *must* see and attack something. If nothing obvious like a vehicle on a road or troops moving though the open is around, the airplane will begin to attack less spottable targets, including hidden guns. I have even seen airplanes attack troops hidden in woods, which strikes me as an extremely difficult target to see from the air. YD This could have something do to with it. The funny thing is that I got tired of the AI buying planes and destroying my armor so I just bought some AT guns instead! So it destroyed my AT guns! I was lucky that the plane showed up after my AT guns had taken out 80% of the Russian armor. I guess it is a lose-lose situation regardless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Buy some cheapo armor so the planes have something to shoot at. If you're soviets get some T-70s/T-60s, if you're germans get a Somua. It's basically a soak-off strategy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Just choose overcast or worse and you wont see enemy aircrafts Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halberdier Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 What YD said also, but (1) in certain situations, ATGs seem to be a little bit too easily spotted by air assets. Briefly, it seems that once an airplane shows up, it *must* see and attack something. If nothing obvious like a vehicle on a road or troops moving though the open is around, the airplane will begin to attack less spottable targets, including hidden guns. I have even seen airplanes attack troops hidden in woods, which strikes me as an extremely difficult target to see from the air. What is probably needed is some sort of routine that allows air assets to show up and have a chance of spotting nothing, in which case they would loiter for a few turns (still looking for something to attack), and then fly off to look for targets elsewhere.is a bit of an understatement in my experience. Also, I've probably mentioned a few times, but it seems aircraft should also be able to attack off-board artillery that is firing and scheduled reinforcements. Cheers! -gabe- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 The problem in CM is that the pilots don't know who is attacking and who is defending and will attack whoever it sees regardless of the situation. Set up an assault where your guys have to traverse some open areas to get to a mostly entrenched enemy - you can even shield your guys from the trenches with some forest so they can approach rather closely. Now give yourself 8 Stukas. SOunds good no? Stukas should attack any pillboxes and strafe the trenches and by the time your soldiers arrive at the area the enemy dhouls be softened up. What happens though, is that some of the Stukas will persistently on consistently strafe your guys on the march and ignore the obvious targets. You will barely be able to move 50 feet. Pilots need to be more aware of the situation in the game, as they would be in real life. Occasionnal mistakes are fine but the current system is too unrealistic to use more than 1 plane for support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halberdier Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Peterk, try it with 8 Crack Stukas and see what difference it makes (or I'll try but it might take a few days to get to it). Cheers! -gabe- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 What I find unrealistic in CM is that the plane spots the gun in the first place, and also that the crew can't eventually remann the gun given enough time. Unrealistic if the gun has already fired, revealing its position? Not necessarily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Contrary to common belief, the firing signature is a small to mid-size AT gun is actually pretty small. In most cases, an AT gun, even when firing, is very difficult to spot from the air. However, there are certain environmental conditions, such a snow on the ground (big black mark on the snow under the muzzle), or dust that make a firing AT Gun easier from the air. CM doesn't appear to take these conditions into account when modeling spotting from the air. A Fighter pilot is moving at over 200mph, Generally at least a half mile above the ground when scanning for targets. He gets no clues from sound - the engine drowns out all but the very loudest exterior noises. In addition to looking for ground targets, he is also constantly worried about enemy fighters and Flak. Speaking as someone who has spent a lot to time flying around at low altitude in small planes, it is very easy to miss objects as large as a house from the air, even if you know where to look for them. Unless the pilot was actually looking directly at the gun when it fired and caught the muzzle flash, I would think sptting an AT gun would be damn difficult. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I once had a 50mm L60 strafed by my own Heinkel! The gun was in a trench, in woods, and hadn't fired. Crew took 3 casualties but didn't abandon...was veteran or crack IIRC. That was the last time I bought aircraft... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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