Strategy? No, Luck? No, Stupidy? Hell Yes!

[Patton21]

Ah, Dorosh, grow up...my manners were great...he was trying to tell me I was saying the game had a flaw in it, when I was just asking a question. Lighten up, this is a message board, not the next candidate for president.

[Redwolf]

Playing swamp and getting in with expensive tanks is a pretty stupid thing to do. Did it occur to you that he never uses big tanks?

By using few pieces of equipment with high prices you automatically place yourself more on the board of good or bad luck. One little mistake, it may be gone and do consirable damage to your changes of whining ^H^H^Hwinning. Having lots of cheap stuff is inherently more robust against statistical anormalies.

[Patton21]

I agree redwold, i dont use heavy armor against swamp, I used four shermans. He had a heavy tank destroyer, my shermans had not way to penetrate the armor as the tank was on a high hill in the corner. I was just bringing up the idea that a plan based on one tank can go wrong. Jesus christ people, im not stupid. I just like to share some thoughts every now and then.

[Michael Emrys]

Patton21,

If as you claim people aren't understanding you, it's because you are inarticulate in addition to being a miserable speller. You need to think through what it is that you want to say and then say that instead of saying fifty other things and then getting mad because nobody guessed your real meaning.

Michael

[Priest]

On the one big tank theory...

It can work...against lesser players...or in limited combat scenarios. In fact for however good the King Tiger was in the end it was only a tactical success. On a strategic level it was more of a hinderance due to the logistics required to make it function. A personal opinion (and it is just that an opinion) is that super heavy tanks are not that viable, at least not until modern tanks like the M1A1 came about. While the M1A1 is a very heavy tank, it still maintains its speed and agility, and is supported by a robust logistics system.

Back to my point. A key tenet in any battle is to gain control of the field and force your opponent to react. In this regard a single Uber tank is more viable on the defence, were its postion can dictate certian enemy behavior. Still it is rare that all lanes of manuever are covered by this behemoth and thus the more manuever elements the attacker has the more he can force the defender to react. Once the attacker forces the defender to move the Uber tank the attacker wins the initiative as the starting locale of the uber tank usually designates an important area and/or approach. The limited manueverability and options available to an Uber tank is even more limited on the attack.

Most advanced players will tell you that while in a one and one face off a KT will win versus a platoon of Mk IVs a platoon of Mk IVs is better than a single KT overall. Why? Because the Mk IVs can move and manuever and add three guns to the field. Also it takes three successful attacks made by the enemy to neutralize them. Hence the idea of a mobile reserve comes into play. I suppose that the single Uber tank could be a mobile reserve force but then again it does not have the advantages (number, extra guns, etc) that are listed above.

That is some of my basic thoughts, and I do hope we can make a discussion out of this.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Redwolf]

Well, there is a reason why they form platoons

Also worth noting is that the thicker the armor plates the more emphasis was placed on using the vehicle not only in companies but in battalions. See Tiger detachment orders and the famous Guderian Jagdpanther deployment notes that are floating around this forum from time to time.

A Tiger or Jagdpanther unit gets its robustness and reliablity as a unit first from its unit size and only then from its armor plates.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Panzer76]

Patton21, I cant really follow ur thought, first u say that u bought uber armour, and thats a good thing, then u say it's a bad thing?!

Anyhow, to add something to the topic on uber armour vs regular armour.

As Priest said, uber armour can be good, if the map suits it, the problem is that there as so many variables that does not suit it and so few that does suit it.

And, it always comes down to LOCAL FIRE SUPERIORITY. It does not matter that u have a KT sitting on that hill, vs 6 T34/76 when u have no LOS to them, and further more, the T34s are slaughtering ur inf.

Another point that Patton brought up and I would say is wrong, is that the armour part in a battle is not that important for a win, = armour caused less than 5 % of cas or somfink.

Well, then I must ask, what kinda battles do u play? As a GENERAL note, the one that wins the armour battle, has won the game. Ofcos, this isnt valid 100% of the times, but I would say, about 80%.

But it also depends on what kinda armour ur left with after the armour battle, a StugIIIF will quickly run out of ammo and have no turret, so, not a dealbreaker on the rest of the inf battle. If u have a T34/76 on the other hand.. the axis player is in for a lot of pain. And you can ofcos have many AFVs left.

To sum up, buying "uber" armour is a risky thing to do, experienced players *tend* to buy a toon of Stugs rather than a Tiger etc.

[ June 18, 2003, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Panzer76 ]

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Originally posted by Patton21:

I tend to use a lot of infantry in cmbb, not much armor. The use of light machine guns right up with your infantry is key in cmbb, as well as some light support vehicles.

I don't know if most would agree with that statement. If you purchased a LMG for every platoon, you would have spent enough points to have a 75mm or 81mm arty spotter, a AC with .50cal or 20mm, or even a light tank or tankette. Personally, I would much rather have a HT with MG (same FP, more ammo plus mobility) than a few LMGs.

Originally posted by Patton21:

In actuallity armor does not do much against infantry in cmbb, which is very nice as tanks only accounted for, if I remember right, 5% of WWII casualties.

Have you seen what the 50mm, 75mm, 76mm and 85mm will do to infantry?? 2 or 3 hits will generally cause them to retreat, if not be routed. If you think that armour is not effective against inf in CMBB, then you're not using it properly.

Originally posted by Patton21:

However, buying of one strong tank can indeed turn luck onto your side by taking out the enemy armor before he has a chance to take out your light support vehicles. As for saying heavy armor is newb, i think saying newb is newb. A heavy tank bought on the right map can do some major good. But, I agree, i would go with infantry and light on the arty, as in cmbb arty does not seem to play as much of a role as in cmbo.

Again, if you think that arty is not as useful as it was in CMBO, you're not using it right, or maybe no one has used it against you properly. As for saying that "a heavy tank on the right map can do major good", you can say that about ANY UNIT in the CM world. Flak trucks vs. inf. in the open, 50mm AT guns vs. armour in boccage map, etc., etc., etc.

Originally posted by Patton21:

I disagree, even string theory claims there is some inherint randomness in all motion in space/time. These motions can be quantized and formed into formulas, but there is always so uncontrolled variable. So take it up a notch, tank combat does involve luck as it does involve nuclear particles. So there is "luck" involved. The whole point of this post was to get people thiking about how chance works in this game. Not about if I choose to by a large tank or not. You silly guys.

First, String Theory is just that THEORY. More and more, astronomers are finding that the empty spaces between particles, planets and galaxies are not empty but filled with anti-matter, black matter or whatever you want to call it. But I'm digressing into quantum theoretical physics... I will stick with my original statement that there is no luck in CM. You are either in a position to shoot and kill your enemy, or you are not. No magic bullets, power-ups or backdoor codes. No shouting "That's not fair!" when your hordes of inf are slaughtered by your opponent's arty. It's very black and white. You're good or you're not. You make intelligent choices, or you don't. You win or you don't.

Originally posted by Patton21:

I agree redwold, i dont use heavy armor against swamp, I used four shermans. He had a heavy tank destroyer, my shermans had not way to penetrate the armor as the tank was on a high hill in the corner. I was just bringing up the idea that a plan based on one tank can go wrong. Jesus christ people, im not stupid. I just like to share some thoughts every now and then.

Had you spent just a little $$$ on a arty spotter, you could have laid down some smoke and rushed into better kill posiitons. But, since you think arty isn't that great in CM, you chose to buy another tank or some more inf which played into your opponent's hands. If he had an uberpanzer, then that was probably the bulk of his AT forces and you should have been able to smoke him and then attack without fear of counterattack from other tanks/AT assets.

In general, it sounds like you haven't played to many human opponents and are making broad generalized (and mostly untrue) statements based on your limited knowledge (and skills?).

You're whole argument of luck playing a big factor in the game is predicated on your relying on that same luck to win games.

If you play smartly, you will be a winner the majority of the time. If you don't, you'll rely on things like "luck", "the right map" and making sure you have exactly the right forces for that particular battle, instead of tactical skills you truely need to win the game.

If you want to improve your skills, try playing the AI on a decent map (mod trees, mod hills, daytime, etc.), but let the AI pick the forces. Once you can defeat the AI EVERY time, then try the same thing with everything set to random. That will teach you how to win with what you have and not rely on luck to get you out of a jam.

This is just my $.02 on "luck" in CM.

[ June 18, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: ColumbusOHGamer ]