SC-2 needs to fix the USA, time we got the historical love & respect

[JerseyJohn]

Errant,

I put it as lovingly as I was able. Of course we can get along. Being an American I'm extremely proud of our great accomplishments:

The World's Highest Murder Rate.

Most Homicides with Fire Arms.

Most People Imprisoned.

Most Meaningless Law Suites.

Most Alchoholics on Earth.

Most Wars started simply because we're able and willing to start them.

Most Frequent Flag Waving Nincompoopism.

Country with the most Canadians in it -- Including Canada!

Poopsie -- I haven't been called that since my Air Force days; the sheer nostalgia brings tears to my eyes.

BTW -- I was stationed at a SAC Base -- Loring -- in the Glorious State of Maine on the Canadian border. There I was forced to watch Canadian broadcasts on a flickering black and white TV set with aluminum foil all over the rabbit ears. Stuck in a dreary dayroom with a bunch of perenially drunk fellow Airmen, watching newscasters who ended every damn sentence with the word "Hey?" even when they were attempting to make a statement. So I know what it is to suffer for my country. And your's, as we would have been very generous in sharing WW III with everyone else.

[ October 27, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[ErrantRecce1]

You see Jersey? Was that so hard? If only we could all hug right now and share a big old " whhoooooooaaaaaaaa Bundy!" But alas, it's not to be. The Sharing, that's what a good world war is really all about. Oh to be young and foolish and have my hand on the trigger again. And it isn't Hey.. we only use that when there're strangers around... when we're 'among our own kind ( the beer swilling, hockey playing, girlfriend swapping kind)' We actually only use High English. I'll try and sneak a video camera into a meeting sometime.. it's really quite enlightening

[JerseyJohn]

Errant

Thanks to you I have seen the error of my ways and your elaboration has me in tears -- being manic depressed that happens about every five minutes anyway.

When you get a chance you might want to visit our new SC Tree House, where subjects you've alluded to are featured topics. Today's most active one regards favorite types of beer!

< Left Click Here for SC Second Home.>

As has already been stated a dozen times and is evidenced by the large number of people who post at both sites, it isn't an either/or situation. The alternate site is partly intended to host Threads that don't conform to this Forum's regulations. But it also carries many SC related discussions along with numerous topics on games other than SC -- which has been one of the most frequent Thread lockers at this Forum --And justifiably, I believe, as this site should be almost exclusively directed to SC and WW II.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Regarding the relative experience and training of new units

May I suggest that this can be shown by giving German units that begin the game 1 Medal of experience. Future units receive none.

[JerseyJohn]

A good idea, I've tried it in several homemade 1939 scenarios and the results satisfied me:

Poland fell on turn two and occasionally even turn one, which is much closer to history than having it hold out till November, as it sometimes does with German units not given experience credit and at L=0 tech.

The German advantage carried over through the French campaign, but diminished as the game progressed and new units were formed without the starting bonus.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Since Hubert is on a roll with SC2 (and I am assuming that it will focus on ETO) I have been trying to think of "historically possible" random events that he might possibly consider to spice the game up and be included as a selectable optional feature. Any suggestions?

Example:

If Italy totally abandons Libya - what would have been the chance for an Arab revolt? 5%? 1%?

If Germany conquered Egypt or the UK abandoned the Middle East would Turkey have considered annexing Iraq? say 5%? 10%? or even Vichy Syria?

If the UK forces abandons Cairo in an AI game would the Egyptians have revolted?10%?

What was the effect of Ultra on the War? Could a similar event give the AI - either Axis or Allies a similar advantage. For example - say a 50% per game that the AI player discovers an ultra device. This gives the AI knowledge of all Human player locations for until the Human player changes his codes (2% per turn). Thus the AI might have an intelligence advantage for an average of 25 turns in some games.

For a human player the benefit from Ultra should be much shorter perhaps only 1 to 6 turns, apply to units on only one major power, and the chance of obtaining one should be only 1% per turn (1 in 100 turns, 1 in 5 years). I say only one maor power for humans as the AI might have trouble interpreting partial information.

Ultra for the AI: 0% Beginner AI, 25% Intermediate AI, 50% Expert AI

[ October 28, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Great Ideas, I'll hit them item by item and no doubt people will disagree with my opinions, but that's good as long as they state their own.

"If Italy totally abandons Libya - what would have been the chance for an Arab revolt? 5%? 1%?"

Presumably there would still have been Italian security troops in the key cities, small though they were. Italy was pretty good at preventing internal rebellion, but with hostile troops in the neighboring country I think the chance would be much higher, perhaps 20% if the Allies hold Egypt and Malta and I'd add another 10% if they also hold Algeria. If North Africa is Axis from Morocco to the Suez and the Axis also holds Gibraltar and Malta I'd say Libya would not have rebelled against the security garrisons. If Malta is held by the Allies I'd say 1% and if both, Malta and Gibraltar are Allies held I'd make it 3%, giving the combination a little bonus.

If Germany conquered Egypt would Turkey have considered annexing Iraq? say 5%? 10%? or even Vichy Syria?

Yes, it would be very likely. More likely they'd go for Syria than for Iraq, but this is very good reasoning. Despite their neutrality most Turks were still chafing at the harsh treatment they'd received by UK and France. Also, after being cheated through the Anglo/French secret agreements regarding Syria, Jordan and Palestine, the Arabs had neither love nor trust for either of them, so that's also a factor worth considering.

If the UK forces abandons Cairo in an AI game would the Egyptians have revolted?10%?

I don't think so. Faruk was a British puppet from start to finish. The only motivation for him to rebel would have been a combination of British evacuation and an imminent Axis invasion.

Another factor is Egypt was tied in with British holdings in the Sudan, Arabia and the entire Red Sea/East Africa complex. Some Egyptian officers might have couped and done it, but I don't believe Faruk would have initiated anything.

What was the effect of Ultra on the War?

Extremely important. Prior to the revelation of this part of the war in the mid-70s, much of it's history made little or no sense. The Allies always seemed to know too much about what was going on behind enemy lines! Ultra's revelation answered a lot of questions. Ironically, the Germans reliec too heavily upon the encryption devices; other codes had not been cracked because so much attention was paid to Ultra, and the Axis, knowing nothing of this, rarely used the simpler codes that were actually completely safe! Instead they'd use Ultra, which was being read regularly in London.

Take Ultra out of the game and the UK is at a big disadvantage, though it would be difficult to equate this in game terms.

Could a similar event give the AI - either Axis or Allies a similar advantage. For example - say a 20% per game that the AI player discovers an ultra device. This gives the AI knowledge of Human player locations until the Human player changes his codes (2% per turn). Thus the AI might have an intelligence advantage for an average of 25 turns in some games."

Yes, I think that would work very nicely.

Thanks for posting this; very good material.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Many thanks for your insightful analysis. Much appreciated. I really admire your linking of the chance for a Libyan revolt (after Italy(Axis) removes all troops) to the status of neighboring territories;

Allies Hold Egypt +10%, Algeria +10%, Only Malta 1%, Only Malta and Gibraltor 3%.

Hopefully HC will consider events such as these for inclusion in SC2. Now for some more questions:

Question: If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and conquered the UK wouldn't the chance for Turkey to move against Vichy Syria and an independent Iraq be even greater (much greater)? Perhaps close to 75%. I think so as they would have every incentive to regain their lost territories when the region would is in chaos.

If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and the UK fell what would the chances for an Egyptian coup be? I think that such an event would encourage coup plotters among the Egyptian Military. Perhaps as high as 10%?

Would Turkey even think of advancing into Egypt if it controlled Syria and Iraq? Especially if an Egyptian coup occurred - wanting to control it before the Axis could move in. Say 25%?

If Russia was losing the war could the Turks have been persuaded to join the Allies if Turkey already controlled Syria and Iraq (and Egypt?), perhaps in exchange for a promise that the Allies would recognize Turkish control over Egypt? and send them new arms via the Suez. I present this option as one way to occassionaly (say one in 20 games) offset the effect of an overly successful German advance against the Russian AI. It would be a surprise that would really spice things up.

Also if the Germans launched a successful Sea Lion wouldn't the US have diverted forces from the PTO. Another realistic way to occassionaly (say 20% if UK Falls to a Sea Lion) give the AI a bonus in the face of an successful German Human player and make for a more interesting game? Of course with FOW on the Human player would not know of the US Pacific Fleet arriving in the Atlantic.

Since all of these events favor the Allies why not a few for the Axis?

Norway

Perhaps give the Axis AI a bonus by reflecting the surprise German conquest of Norway. In 25% of the games vs Axis AI have Norway surrender to the Axis after Denmark falls to Germany. This would give the Axis a small MPP Boost from Plunder and Production and eliminate the need to write an AI routine for this. To secure Norway the AI would of course have to transport units to Oslo. Carrying this idea futher - say that it has a 0% at Beginner AI, 25% at intermediate AI and a 75% to happen at Expert level AI.

[ October 27, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[jon_j_rambo]

The World's Highest Murder Rate.

I disagree, I'm sure there are plenty of butchers in Africa (wartribes), Yugoslavia (ethnic killing in the 90's), & old Russian territories (like Georgia) that have murdered higher than the U.S. Our numbers are high enough, problem is simple. People would rather steal than work. There are plenty of jobs in the States. Reinstate the Death Penalty, get rid of welfare, & reduce the taxes so manufacturing jobs can be done in the Inner cities.

Most Homicides with Fire Arms

Among drug dealers (also see the above issue). There's no problem with guns in Idaho, I everybody owns two. One for hunting & one for home protection (2nd Ammendment)

Most People Imprisoned

Yep, because we actually enforce laws. Break the law, you goto jail. There should be more people in jail, starting with O.J. Simpson, Kenneth Lay, & maybe Kobe Byrant once the facts come out. Other countries don't waste their with petty crime, they beat the crap out of them & take their cash. The Euros numbers might seem good, they've tried war & nationalism, now they're going One World Order route.

Most Meaningless Law Suites

At least we have law. I'd rather have lots of lawyers with lots of red tape crap then a police force with unrestricted power.

Most Alchoholics on Earth

Prove it. I bet it's Russia. In South America it's probably pot. We tried prohibition, but that brought organized crime. Turn your back on God, & the bottle will become your god. Stay away from the Devil Juice, if you can't just take "a little wine for thy stomach's sake".

Most Wars started simply because we're able and willing to start them

Really? Get a history book, we left Europe to get away from War & the Unholy Roman Empire for freedom. We started invididual rights & fight for them today. You better fight for freedom, before something bad happens & you lose what is taken for granted. Check out China's "Free Speech".

Most Frequent Flag Waving Nincompoopism

Praise God & fly Old Glory. A flag is a symbol. It stands for something. Don't worry, Old Glory won't fly forever, you might just get a UN Flag someday if a Mushroom cloud hits Washington D.C. by the Evil Ones. We'll see how much better the next flag treats us, remember that next time you get a Social Security check out of the mailbox, speak freely, practice religion freely, & have no travel restrictions.

Country with the most Canadians in it -- Including Canada!

Yep, everybody bad mouths us, wants our money, have our troops to die for them, & then first thing they do is want to live here.

How can you say that thousands of innocent women and children deserved to be killed in a fire raid. The war was started by sick German politicians, not the majority of the population, who were no different to people the world over.

Not all women on the Axis were innocent, women supported their Nazi husbands, helped fingered Jews, fingered non-Nazis, worked in war factories, conducted medical experiments, worked all kinds of other positions supporting the Nazis, & they held their hand up to the Hitler just like the men. Why didn't the sub commanders surface & surrender? Why didn't the troops in N. Africa surrender? Why didn't the Luftwaffe pilots bail out of their planes & surrender? You think Hitler & Stalin were bad, that's just pre-game for Revelation, in that future time, you either go with the program (take the Mark) or die for the Truth.

I think that both the US and the USSR should have the inexperience thing, but that is it could ( should) be phased out, starting with when the country first starts into combat.

The Germans were overrated. Burning books, bashing in store windows, beatings, killing, & bombing Poland (sleeping farmers, teachers, etc.) doesn't take experience.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

My pleasure -- and another batch!

Question: If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and conquered the UK wouldn't the chance for Turkey to move against Vichy and Iraq be even greater (much greater)? Perhaps close to 100%. I think so as there would be nothing to stop them.

I think so, I'd have to agree completely. The only remaining barrier would be the USSR and I think Turkey would be justifyably emboldened with Britain and France having left the scene.

The Turks also had a bone to pick with Russia as they'd received the Southern Caucasus in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the Soviet's, upon securing Ukrania, made the Caucasus their next priority.

If Germany launched a successful Sea Lion and the UK fell what would the chances for an Egyptian coup be? I think that the chances would be quite high.

The chances would have been extremely high among army officers. The Faruk Government pretty much existed only with British protection, so full independence wouldn't have been a priority of theirs. Theoretically, Egypt was a sovereign state! Nonsensical, of course, but thoughout the war German and Italian agents roamed the streets of Alexandria and Cairo with great freedom and were able to easily observe and report on British naval and troop movements through the Italian embassy. I'm not sure whether Germany had one, but no doubt they did as well.

Getting back to the original question, though, it seems likely to me that the nationalist elements would definitely have risen up if the British were defeated and Commonwealth Troops vacated the country. If Britain were defeated, however, there's still a chance that US and Commonwealth forces would actually have made a greater buildup in the country. This is another country that would need to be linked to the global situation. If the Japanese were also doing well . . ..?

Would Turkey even think of advancing into Egypt if it controlled Syria and Iraq? Especially if an Egyptian coup occurred - wanting to control it before the Axis could move in.

I think it's much more likely Germany would have wanted Italy to control Egypt and the Suez Canal, even if Italy were only a battered corpse being dragged along by Germany. The reason is simple, control of Italy's foreign policies from Berlin would have been comparatively assured while Turkey, at some point, might attain dellusions and become less cooperative with German interests. An arrangement the Germans would probably have backed was Turkey in control of the Middle East with Italy dominating the Meditterranean andNorth Africa and Spain controlling Gibraltar.

After WWI Greek and Turkey went to war. If Turkey obtained control of Iraq and Syria would it have stopped there? Or would the Turkish Generals aim for Egypt & Suez Canal or a neutral Bulgaria.

After WW I Britain and the UK wanted to directly occupy and control the Dardenelles but backed off when the United States expressed it's opposition to the idea. So, they divided the eastern Meditterranean with Britain coming out with the Lion's share. France was so obsessed with Syria, which it saw as a springboard, that it didn't object.

When things settled down the two countries instigated the Greek / Turkish War, backing Greece, and hoped to control the passage through Greek rule. Turkey, initially pushed back, ultimately won that forgotten war and was rewarded with a continued existence.

Moving ahead to a Middle East without Britain or French dominance, I think the Turks would have been forced to contain their ambitions within the confines described above. It's also conceivable that Germany would have backed Iraq and Turkey would have gotten as little as Syria, Lebannon, Palestine, Cyprus and part of the Caucasus. Under no circumstances would Germany have allowed it to move back into Bulgaria!

I say that partly because Germany believed in Divide and Conquer Diplomacy, the two countries being enemies, as most of the Balkan states were with all the other Balkan states! And partly because, with Bulgaria a German Ally/protectorate, Turkey would always be vulnerable to a German seizing of the Dardenelles and potential invasion via Europe.

What would the turkish army have looked like. My take is that at best it would consist of possibly 1HQ and lots of Corps and Armies with no Armor and No Air Fleets and No Navy with no investment in research, except for perhaps Anti-Tank. Am I correct?

Your view is exactly as my own so if you're wrong then we both are. Possibly it would more closely resemble the game Sweden, with it's own air force. The problem is Turkish naval and air units, like it's army, would have been equipped with Germany's obsolescent weapons. Which was largely the case with Sweden and Switzerland. Which meant all those nations would have been better equipped than Mussolini's forces, though the Italians would have had a lot more units and would always have been aided by Germany, if needed.

If Russia was losing the war could the Turks have been persuaded to join the Allies if Turkey already controlled Syria and Iraq (and Egypt?), perhaps in exchange for a promise that the Allies would recognize Turkish control over Egypt? and send them new arms via the Suez. I present this option as one way to occassionaly (say one in 20 games) offset the effect of an overly successful German advance against the Russian AI. It would be a surprise that would really spice things up.

Yes, this was the sort of arrangement that for centruies shaped European and Middle Eastern alliances. Italy in WWI held out to see who would offer the larger portion of it's enemy's territory. Turkey would have behaved no differently; unless it was convinced that the Allies, in the final analysis, would neither have won nor been left dominating the region.

Also, if the German Sea Lion succeeded would the US have deverted resources from the Pacific to the Atlantic? Sending at least 1 Carrier Group to the Atlantic.

This goes directly back to Shaka's excellent point about plans for a 200+ Division United States Army. The United States would have sent very large forces to any part of the Middle East, Europe or North Africa that seemed promising. After setting up the initial supply route there would have been little difficulty in keeping a large force supplied through either the Persian Gulf or Red Sea, or both.

But from there we start entering fuzzy zones -- does Germany now finish the warships on French, Italian, British and German slipways and combine them with the existing ships to create the fabled Blue Ocean Navy? Yes, I think they do; not with a view to invading North America, but with the purpose of breaking the U. S. supply lines and securing Europe, Africa and the Middle East. The next step, as every risk player knows, isn't North American, but Brazil!

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

F-A-C-E-T-I-O-U-S

Not meant to be taken seriously.

Yes, Russia and Finland both have higher alcoholism rates, suicide rates etc...

Yes, nobody knows how many people are killed in Africa because nobody is keeping track; are we comparing ourselves to warlords these days?

Yes, the United States has entered into dozens of wars in South America going back over a century to protect U. S. interests. I know about them. I don't need to crack any more history books, thank you.

Yes, the U. S. prisons are filled to overflowing and much of that is drug related. And in all these decades we haven't found a way to deal with that? Okay, fine.

As for the flag, I don't just support our troops, when a major, prolonged and unpopular bloody war was going on, I was one of our troops, so, like so many others who post here, I neither need nor desire a lesson in patriotism.

The rest is nonsense not worth commenting upon.

We're on the same side, why pick these things to comment on, it's the least interesting crap that's been posted in a week?

[ October 27, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Dear JerseyJohn

I find reading your answers most interesting and informative.

So here's one more quesiton for you:

Since all of these events favor the Allies why not a few for the Axis?

Norway

As most Axis humans players will take the Nordic countries:

Perhaps give the Axis AI a bonus by reflecting the surprise German conquest of Norway. In 25% of the games vs Axis AI have Norway surrender to the Axis after Denmark falls to Germany if no allied ships block passage to Oslo. This would give the Axis a small MPP Boost from Plunder and Production and eliminate the need to write an AI routine for conquering Norway. To secure Norway the AI would of course have to transport units to Oslo.

Carrying this idea further - it has a 0% at Beginner AI, 25% at intermediate AI and a 75% to happen at Expert level AI.

Any thoughts? Would this unbalance the game or would it be welcome by players against the AI?

Of course since most Human Axis players take Sweden too HC would have to write a routine for this or find a simpe way to reflect this. One reason why Humans do so much better as the Axis is that they start off with a much higher MPP base, if the game could duplicate this it would be much more interesting.

Nonsensical, of course, but thoughout the war German and Italian agents roamed the streets of Alexandria and Cairo with great freedom and were able to easily observe and report on British naval and troop movements through the Italian embassy. I'm not sure whether Germany had one, but no doubt they did as well.

Thanks for the information, an excellent reason to justify giving the AI information about the number of Allied units in Egypt. This would eliminate the current situation where the allied forces can abandon Egypt and the AI will not move in to conquer it.

[ October 28, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Dear Edwin

The Axis also had great intelligence on Allied shipping, troop and naval movements moving through the Gibraltar Straits.

Incredibly, German espionage was so inept that the British were nearly always able to turn the very valuable information Germany received to their own advantage. The Nazi spy network was mishandled and horrible; most nazi spies were caught and turned into Allied agents. By the last year of the War it became so bad that they were reluctant to send loyal nazis on those missions and resorted to sending Jewish prisoners using their families as a lever for reliable information. All these German Jewish agents went the same way, they defected and were given specially selected information to send back to the Abwehr and Gestapo.

As you know, the head of the Abwehr, Admiral Wm Canaris, was himself an anti-nazi who fed information the British and talked Franco out of joining the Axis -- another what-if!

The Soviet Union had the most efficient spy network and the British used nationist agents trained in the UK and sent home to great effect in nearly every occupied country. The U. S. had an erratic system and was guided by Britain. Italy had good spies in the Meditterrannean but was itself heavily infiltrated by pro Allied Italians.

Agree entirely about Norway. Several months back I suggested a special rule and option for the Axis which would simulate the historical campaign there. In reality the country was taken with much less than a single corps' worth of troops and the rest were brought in, mainly by air, as reinforcements. I'll try and find that thread, it must be on page 100 by now, and link it here.

Found it:

< Thread on Special Denmark & Norway Historical Invasion Option >

I'm glad you've come up with this idea. As I remember it, Liam also had ideas along these lines.

I don't feel comfortable giving game views because I'm not a very good player, but I am comfortable expressing historical opinions.

Glad you enjoyed the feedback; I enjoyed offering it.

[ October 27, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Also, if the German Sea Lion succeeded would the US have deverted resources from the Pacific to the Atlantic? Sending at least 1 Carrier Group to the Atlantic.

This goes directly back to Shaka's excellent point about plans for a 200+ Division United States Army. The United States would have sent very large forces to any part of the Middle East, Europe or North Africa that seemed promising. After setting up the initial supply route there would have been little difficulty in keeping a large force supplied through either the Persian Gulf or Red Sea, or both.

Now that's interesting.

So, if Axis takes England then have Egypt become Free British with any UK units that are based within 5 hexes of Cairo becoming Free British Units (100%). Supply for Egypt increases to 10 as a merchant ship route is created from the US to the South Atlantic. As long as this route stays at 20MPP or higher Cairo operates as a level 10 city. The UK can build new units in Cairo reflecting troops from Australia, India, South Africa, etc.

To make things simple the US can send war ships via the South Atlantic Transit hexes to Cairo and can operate Air Units there.

Free Brits

Also once the UK falls should

1) UK naval Units have a chance to become Free Brits, especially if they are within 1 hex of US or Candian ports or close to Cairo?

2) The UK be able to build units in Canada with any MPP produced by the UK or its minor allies?

[ October 27, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Thanks for the link to the threat it was most interesting to read your comments and the comments of others.

The key element I think is my take that the Allies can block the invasion if they station naval ships off the coast of Oslo and that the AI can take Denmark, especially if it is programmed to attack Denmark on turn 1 and not wait until after France falls.

[JerseyJohn]

Free Brits

Also once the UK falls should

1) UK naval Units have a chance to become Free Brits, especially if they are in US ports or close to Cairo?

2) The UK be able to build units in Canada with any MPP produced by the UK or its minor allies?

I think anything not directly in German controled Britain would have sailed to Canada and become Free British, yes, totally agreed with the premise.

Of course, anything near to the German zone, as you point out, would have been turned over to the Axis as a bargaining chip.

Agree entirely with your take on Cairo and the Middle East and that's exactly the way I see it. The U. S. and Common Wealth should be able to conduct it's own Two Front war (Atlantic and Middle East) even after Great Britain capitulates. I also believe tens of thousands of men from occupied Europe would have made their way to either South Africa or Canada and been absorbed into the continuing battle.

Clash of Steel treated the situation in a similar manner, making British defeat dependant upon capturing both the British Isles and Alexandria.

[ October 27, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Yes, I agree completely.

The German Scandinavian Campaign is one of the most unique events in the history of warfare!

The problem with capable Anglo/French handling of the situation is the old Munich Conference bunch were still running things. Mining the fjiords was Churchill's idea as First Lord of the Admiralty, but the Chamberlain and French governments bungled the campaign horribly. Sending part of the fleet to the Oslo would have been a common sense move, thought they'd have been vulnerable to German aircraft, but it was a required risk.

As it turned out historically, the German sea transport carried out all it's tasks a single day before the Royal Navy would have been in position to stop them cold!

[Edwin P.]

It would be interesting to hear HC's take on the concepts that we have covered in the numerous posts listed above;

1> Middle East Events

2> Norway

3> Free Brits & Cairo

4> Ultra

I like them but they may not mesh with his vision of SC2 or could be outside the scope of his project plan.

[ October 27, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Agreed completely, but it was still fun hashing these things around.

Off to work, really enjoyed it.

[Korut Zelva]

I think we can reach some compromise. Here's my suggestion:

At the start of the war all countries of europe surrender to the axis. Because frankly they didn't fight that much (pussies). Then America activate. America only got one type of unit; the jon_j_rambo unit. Their initial stats are low but since America start with 5 tech in "American neocon bravado" and "Jingoism" they are really invinsible. Then the USA procede to liberate the free world and there is much rejoycing and hollywood movies.

[JerseyJohn]

Oh Great Spirits of Cecil B. DeMille, John and Walter Huston, Richard D. Zanuck and John Ford.

We call upon thee to invoke the Hollywood WW II Saints Randolph Scott, John Wayne, Sterling Hayden, Robert Ryan, William Bendix, Pat O'Brien, Humphrey Bogart, Robert Mitchum, Walter Brennan, Cornell Wilde, Joseph Cotton and all the others from the Great Beyond to alight from The Sands of Iwo Jima and emerge from the Guadalcanal Diary to

Smite the Heretical

Korut Zelva

And force him to recant his most unholy words!

[ October 28, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

Didn't mean to snap so abrasively at you last night. Anyway, we've had plenty of much worse exchanges so I'm not worrying about some fourth rate abrasivness.

You're a good person, a bright guy and you obviously love OUR country.

It baffles me that some of your remarks, especially regarding the Germans, are so heavy handed. You're obviously a compassionate soul; that compassion has to extend to everyone everywhere or it extends to nobody anywhere. That's the difference between you and a realy nazi; a real nazi only cares about his own, a real person cares about everyone.

And Germans are not nazis just as Russians were never communists. Governments and psychotic rulers come and go. The people remain. If, in their ignorance they choose to hurt each other for reasons that are only skin deep then it's a flaw in the species and we as enlightened individuals should try to rise above it.

I'm saying all this because this forum is getting things back together after a brief bad period and I'm glad as hell for it. The new forum is rolling and people are enjoying it and I'm glad as hell about that as well.

I doubt I'll be doing much posting at either of them for a long time to come due to other considerations, namely making a living.

The thing is, I don't want to go off with the two of us having any hard feelings at all.

Aside from enjoying all your in the face stuff since I first realized how you meant it, I have also learned a lot from you and even more because of you!

Stay a Legend my friend, there are too few of them in this world.

[ October 28, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Quick thoughts before I return to work:

1>----------------------------------------

At Higher AI levels it might make sense to give the German and UK AI a bonus Research Chit on or after a specific date or event as the current SC AI for these powers does not invest in research as much as human players.

Example: France Surrenders

German AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert Level

Example: After all Axis Minors Join Germany

German AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert Level

Example: After Germany conquers Norway and Sweden

German AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert Level

Example: After Germany conquers Spain, Portugal and Gibraltor

German AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert Level

Example: Russia Prepares for War

UK AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert level in Jets

Example: London or London Port reduced to 4 or less.

UK AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert level in Air Defense.

Example: UK has 3 Carriers in June 1941

UK AI - 1 Bonus Research Chit at Expert level in Long Range. If the carrier fleet survives the English engineers work to extend their range.

Example: Axis has 6+ subs in the Atlantic.

UK AI and US AI gain 1 bonus reseach chit in Anti-Sub at Expert Level as their scientists focus on countering the submarine threat.

Example: UK surrenders.

US AI gains 1 bonus research chit in Industrial Research at Expert level as the economy is fully mobilized for war.

Perhaps, the investment areas for the German "bonus" research chits should be restricted to one of the major combat oriented techs: Armor (25%), Anti-Tank (25%) or Jets (50%) for Germany.

I do not think that there needs to be a similar bonus for the Italy AI as it seems handle tech research quite well. In fact, in a recent game against the AI Italy had Tech Level 4 Anti-Tank and Tech Level 5 Jets.

2>------------------------------------

If SC2 has an intelligence tech perhaps it should give a player a chance to see the enemy's tech level in each area

Example: 1% per turn per Intelligence Tech Level to get a report on the enemies tech level in a particular area. The report would list the enemy tech level and the date of the last intelligence report in this area. (Counter Intelligence Tech would reduce this by 1% per Tech Level)

Intelligence Report

Germany: Jets (Unknown), AntiTank (4, March 1942), Longrange (1, April 1943), Subs (0, December 1942)

Italy: Jets (Unknown), AntiTank (Unknown), Jets (2, June 1943)

[ October 29, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

All good ideas. Hubert made a change in the intelligence proceedure once to allow for gaining an advance if there were a big gap between nations, so perhaps he'll also adapt these changes. I think they'd help. Afree about Italy, for some reason they advance with abnormaly speed.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

I agree, for some reason Italy seems to do a good job at researching, better in fact than the UK or Germany or Russia.

In my idea I also tried to base it somewhat on history. For example - Once Germany started bombing London the Brits increased their Air Defense research.

I also find that Italy & Germany & Russia also gains advancements in areas that they do not use.

Example: Russia will often research rockets but nevers builds rocket units. Germany gets advancements in Subs and rockets but never builds any. Italy keeps researching jets when all it can afford to build is corps and armies.

The AI really needs a rountine to tell it what to research and when to reclaim chits. In fact it might be interesting to write a white paper on this one topic with sections for each major power borrowing ideas from the SC Strategy Guide but directed more towards the AI Decision tree and tying AI research decisions into the AI war strategy. Of course, HC probably has this area covered already but he might be interested in seeing a new viewpoint.

New Example:

Example: Axis has 6+ subs in the Atlantic.

--UK AI AI gains 1 bonus research chit in Anti-Sub at Expert Level if it has at least 4+ surface ships otherwise it gains 1 chit in Long-Range.

--US AI gains 1 bonus research chit in Long Range or Anti-Sub at Expert Level.

--US AI Gains 2 levels in Bomber Production (ie New Production Focus tech that reduces cost of Bomber units by 5% for each level).

The Production Focus tech I refer to above allows countries to gain a lower production cost for specific unit types by spemding a fixed amount of MPPs. Each level of Focus reduces the production cost for a specific unit - such as Battleships, Cruisers, Subs, Rockets, and Bombers by 5% and costs XXX MPP (say 125MPP). So a 10% reduction in the cost of producing Subs would cost 250 MPP. Air Fleets, Armor, and Infantry Units are not affected by this tech as these units were affected more by limits on the availabilty of manpower (especially pilots) than production techniques.

Now players can reduce the cost of production by 50% - Level 5 Industrial Tech + Level 5 Production Focus (Subs) = 50% Reduction in the cost of submarine protection.

Historically, Germany was able to produce Subs faster than other powers while the US production rate in Bombers and Cruisers was umatched. Am, I correct?

This new type of tech would allow the Axis to wage a battle for the Atlantic as an investment of 625MPP in Production Focus (subs) would reduce the cost of subs from 325 to 243. It would also reduce the cost of bombers to a more affordable level if players decided to invest in Production Focus (bombers) for a guaranteed 25% reduction in the unit cost.

Naturally each Production Focus tech only affects one type of unit.

Industrial Tech - Reduces cost of production for all unit types by % per level.

Production Tech [unit Type] - Reduces cost of one unit type (Bombers, Cruisers, Battleships, Rockets, Subs) 5% per level. Immediate Effect.

Any thoughts/comments on this concept?

[ October 29, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]