Patch v. Balancing

[Jim Boggs]

Sorry JJ, my turn to post--you need to make a beer run.

I think, and this ties back to what you were saying about Hitler mismanaging the war, that the Germans had a window of opportunity to conquer the Soviet Union during the early phases had they better handled the ethnic minorities (Ukraine, White Russian, and obviously the Baltic States) as they overran their territories early in the 1941 campaign. They were welcomed as liberators in a number of locations as the people sought to throw off the bonds of Stalinism. It was the behind the front actions of their Gestapo and SS units which enabled Stalin to save his position and turn the war into a great Patriotic struggle.

At this point the hatred of the Soviet people for the Germans was beyond redemption and I think there would not be any Soviet surrender regardless of how much territory was overrun.

So yes, I think the conquest of the Soviet Union was possible, but not with Hitler and his gang of racial purists running the war.

Thank you for your time

[ January 11, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[JerseyJohn]

Jim

A good point and well said.

The irony is the Kaiser's army was very well liked by the Ukranians and other Russians in the territories it occupied. In the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, establishing peace between the Kaiser's Germany and Lennin's Russia, it was secified that an indedpendant Ukrane (Ukrania) would be established along with newly independant Finland, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. All of Poland was to be absorbed as part of Germany.

The memory of beign well treated just twenty years earlier had much to do with the happy welcoming of German units in the Ukrane and Belorussia. The brutality metered out almost immedeately, surpassing even Stalin's insanities, must have been an incredible shock to the local population. One of Germany's best generals, sixth army commander von Richenau happened to also be one it's staunchest nazis and did much to set the pattern for German attrocities in the Soviet Union.

<a href="http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/person/d/army/01042.jpg" target="_blank">

Photo of Field Marshal Walther von Richenau -- Commander of Sixth Army then Army Group South, died of natrural causes early 1942</a>

I find it hard to believe the situation would have continued indefinately. At some point either the random brutality had to end or the population had to universally rise up in mass rebellion as opposed to partisan activity and even the Nazis would have realized a dead population would be of little use to them.

As for Russia continuing the fight from beyond the Urals, maybe so, but Germany would have had the option of halting and simply defending it's outer boundaries in much the same manner as ancient Rome and China. The real stregnth could then have been transferred back west.

Sooner or later a real peace would have been established in the East, especially if the Soviets lost power and the rump of what had been Russia fragmented into it's ethnic components.

In the occupied areas Germany could have salvaged things by softening it's grip. There would still have been partisans for decades to come, but the bulk of the population would have functioned well if treated with even a minimum of decency.

Your turn, time for another run. By the way, I find this arrangement slightly unfair as I have to get my bottles and by your own admission you're sitting in a brewery!

[ January 11, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[GroupNorth]

Dear Jim,

Back in university, I came across several texts which documented high collaboration between racists in the USSR and the SS. Both in the Ukraine and especially the Baltic states, many gangs and mobs were more than happy to turn on the Jews before the van of the Wehrmacht showed up (behind whom were the SS Einsatzgruppen). Especially in the Baltic, documents reveal local racists attacking and killing many Jews.

And Stalin was a similiar testament to evil. At first trying to ally with Jewish partisans fighting to defend Russia, he quickly turned on them. Antisemiticism has a long, cyclical tradition in Eastern Europe and Russia, going way back.

Even the conquered Poles claim that, even if Hitler was a monster, he still did one good thing: empty the country of Jews.

[Jim Boggs]

Welcome to the discussion Group North, but we must keep this on topic as to the viability of Germany conquering Russia.

Is it therefore your opinion that Hitler would have found support for his anti-Semitic policies in the Soviet Union and had he limited his ethnic cleansing to only the Jews he might still have succeeded. This would mean in game terms that the conquest of the Soviet Union could be achieved.

If so, this is a scenario I had not considered, and I have learned something tonight.

I come from Florida, where, if you would be so kind to post, do you reside?

To JJ

Unfortunately, (checks his calendar) today's Saturday. Welcome group North to the discussion.

[ January 11, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[Liam]

The Jews were an ingrown toenail for Germany! Imagine transporting all those millions of people to concentration camps, policing them and killing them off for what? We likely knew what he was doing and it made the Nazis unpopular with the United States that though had rascism was at the forefront of FREE Democratic World.

Could Hitler have conquored Russia???

He made errors... Didn't plan for a harsh winter and wasted much needed resources elsewhere when they were needed for Russia. Moscow needed to fall in 1941, in early December and then it needed to be burnt to the ground so that they could not retake anything of value then Leningrad would've fallen also. It was achievable if the armies would have gone faster even started a month earlier.

After that the following year, crushing the Caucas and Stalingrad and burning whatever the Russians might take in return. Then setting up a defense and raping the Nation of it's mineral wealth. The partisans smartisans. They couldn't fight a well equiped army.. Especially without any support from the HomeLand

[JerseyJohn]

Liam, GroupNorth

Yes, there was rampant and livid antisemitism throughout most of Europe and the Baltic countries were among the worst at killing it's Jewish population with SS men watching and snapping photos. Some of the most famous of which show a mob of psychos clubbing Jewish victims to death in Riga with SS men smiling, looking on, enjoying it all taking suiveneer photos to send home.

Also, the sheer effort in carrying out the Holocaust did much to cost Germany the war. In 1944 especially the drain on rolling stock in the east was insane, as was the entire mind boggling horrific program. The victims at least have the posthumous satisfaction that in their own way they were helping their murderers to lose everything.

Jim Saturday already -- no wonder my bottle count is running low!

[Jollyguy]

Another poster asked how I gave Russia units without activating them.

I didn't! I'm a first time user to the scenario editor. I didn't realize "activating" meant they joined the war. I though it meant activating them to make modifications.

So I guess the only option is to give Russia and America extra $ to begin with, which would also work.

[pzgndr]

JollyGuy, I was wondering myself what you were doing.

Giving US and USSR some at-start MPPs and boosting their research chits seems the way to go. I'm thinking 2 turns worth as a nice round number, and to be fair Italy should get some also. So I've been experimenting with both US and USSR starting with 4 chits and 360 and 960 MPPs respectively. Italy starts with 230 MPPs and 1 chit. I'm also considering 2 chits for Germany in 1939 and 1940, and bumping Rockets up to L2 in 1940. (The AI actually bought a rocket unit to attack London!)

Some ideas that I thought would be good appear now to be unbalancing. Making Iraq British-controlled gives Britain a huge advantage, and making it US-controlled causes a game crash. Giving USSR L1 jets and AT also gives them a huge advantage. In a game yesterday with those changes, they finally got L2 AT and L3 IT at the end of 1942 and that halted the German advance along the Moscow-Stalingrad-Rostov line. With 4 chits and extra cash to buy another at start, USSR should be OK. Britain with its extra MPPs took Libya in 1941, Sicily in 1942, and conquered Italy by summer 1943. Germany fell a year later. We want to make the Allies more challenging, but not to the point of swinging the "bias" too far in the other direction and making an Axis victory impossible.

Giving the 3 inactive majors 2 turns worth of MPPs allows them to mobilize a little faster. 960 MPPs for USSR seems like a lot, but really doesn't go too far. Giving Germany 2 chits would represent the large research capability it had going into the war and allows them to make some additional early advances, while 4 chits for US and USSR allow them to close the gaps and start making some gains. Egypt is pretty tough with the BB moved from Malta to Suez (one originally in Britain), and a human player can easily take Iraq himself. Anyways, those are my current musings. Let's continue to experiment and see if play balance improves.

[Hueristic]

Well i was going to commet on the original topic but this thing has flown soo far off course it ain't never comeing back.

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic

Like the Italian forum that wound up in outer space! You should post what you want to say and maybe a few relevant postings will follow and this thing will be back where it's supposed to be, wherever the hell that is!

[ January 12, 2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]