New PBEM Tournament Part II !

[Jollyguy]

Do we have any house rules in the second round, as two opponents just mentioned above in their AAR, or was that just their mutual choice?

[Tigleth Pilisar]

Jollyguy

My understanding is that there are no house rules in the tourney. The way the first game started is the way every game will be. Axis players who don't want an LC gambit can declare war on LC the first turn.

Jersey John

I don't think your rationale is sound. You conclude that the way to avoid critism for scenarios you make is to be a player, not a scenario maker. I think a valid solution has been proposed to reduce potential imbalance of scenarios: Both players play both sides simultaneously in 2 games at once. We still need to think through how to score games if each player wins one of the two games. Perhaps they both advance?! (Can this work? - why not? the organiser can make the rules.)

I hope you get the chance to be a player, but I sure like your scenarios. I'm playing with the Brest-Litovosk scenario right now. I particularly like the historic backing you use for your "fantasy" scenarios. This whole scenario thing (along with human PBEM opponents) has really brought this game to life for me. All the sudden it is like many games in one! I can't wait to start another tourney.

[JerseyJohn]

Reepicheep & Terry

Good choice of House Rules and one for each side.

Tigleth

disorder and myself originally discussed having each round consisting of two games played simultaneously, one from each side. I'd have preferred that arrangement, it would certainly have given everyone a better idea of the scenario itself, but it was dropped when the tournament became an elimination format. We felt there'd be too many 1-1 results and we'd have needed some sort of tie breaking method or the rounds might have gone on interminably. This seemed a better alternative as there would always be a clear winner.

I'm not particularly concerned about criticism, in fact the only way to improve these things is to hear what shortcomings other players discover. The reason I say others is because if the only testing given a scenario is by it's creater he isn't likely to find the weaknesses he unintentionally built in to the situation. I became annoyed because I kept being bludgeoned with the same criticisms and, to be honest, I still feel the Axis-bias is very slight and no worse than in most other scenarios.

In any case, the scenario itself has undergone numerous changes since the Tournament version, many of the things changed are directly attributable to the feedback provided from these games.

Aside from which, this is a scenario based on the idea that Germany entered the war fully prepared! I also stregnthened the Allies, but Germany would have increased it's stregnth at a proportionatly higher rate than the more budget conscious democracies.

Most 1939 based scenarios will always appear to be in favor of the Axis. They have to be because if the Axis doesn't expand to the very brink of winning it loses! It takes a lot more skill to successfully play the Allies. Skilled players should pretty much break even regardless of the scenario but players who aren't very skilled will generally lose with the Allies against equally skilled Axis opponents. This was verified during the first few months of the IP Ladder when, after a while it seemed the Axis couldn't lose. Then it swung back and it appeared it couldn't win!

The long and the short of it is that having to constantly defend something you've made becomes very tiring. More so when you honestly don't agree with the criticisms.

Glad you like the Brest-Litovsk Campaign. I wanted to have a situation where the Axis was reacting instead of initiating but still had a chance to seize the initiative. The problem with that game was the exact opposite of the Z-Plan; the Axis is the decided underdog!

Iron Ranger and myself started a game of the latest variation and we discovered the UK had only four HQs available with none on the map -- I'm revising the scenario again to be resubmitted to Ottos and would really be extremely grateful for any quirks or imbalances that need to be addressed.

Originally I'd intended to have most research fields at L=0 except for British Sonar at L=5 and German Rockets also at L=5, with a lot of unassigned research for all the major countries. Somewhere I got away from that but will probably get back to that idea in this, hopefully, final version.

My reasoning with the scenarios is to try and use the techniques developed by dgaad, Marinov and especially Bill Macon. As they've already put out scenarios that are close to history I felt I should take a different approach and go more for the What-Ifs.

Particularly glad you enjoyed the intros -- I think there are at least two or three alternate history novels sitting in the Brest-Litovsk idea. The truth is, if Germany had accepted the Anglo-French offer instead of trying to win it all, modern history could easily have gone in any one of several directions. I chose one because I felt it made the best SC situation, but the others are also very interesting and considerably different.

For straight competition I believe Bill succeeded very well in his 1939 and 1949 Mods and would recommend them as standards for the PBEM League.

Meanwhile Panzer39 is putting the finishing touches on his Z-Plan scenario and at least one other very experienced player is working on the same subject, so hopefully there will be some real variety in this idea very soon.

Sorry if I seemed to get cranky at times, it wasn't intentional.

=== Please Note ===

If I don't respond to postings during the rest of the week I hope no one will be offended; I'm not ducking things but a few matters have come up and during the next few days I'll be spending most of my SC time running back and forth to NY.

[ July 16, 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Reepicheep]

I mentioned the house rules to my opponent- thinking it had perhaps been decided to use them, though I wasn't sure (and I wanted to get started ). We can still rescind the no-amphibious invasion on first turn of Barbarossa rule if necessary; it doesn't matter either way to me.

Anyhow, the third round has been completed. Little enemy air activity occurred in Western Europe, indicating that they were using at least part of their MPP windfall to reinforce air fleets. The Kriegsmarine retreated into the Baltic.

German ground forces advanced into France, destroying a border army. The lead tank army was annihilated in a counter-attack, however; and the border is again secured, though at least one French army (at 3-strength) will undoubtedly be destroyed shortly. Commonwealth forces moved into northeastern France to strengthen defenses there, and both French and British airplanes pounded enemy targets.

Meanwhile, the Italians disposed of a Greek corps and attacked a British cruiser. The UK HQ was transported out of the worsening Greek situation, as was the French air fleet. A French battleship made a suicide run up into the Adriatic pursuing the retreating Italian fleet, followed by the damaged UK cruiser. From their reconnaisance reports it was decided to not send the entire Mediterranean fleet into the Adriatic at this time- the Italian air presence making prolonged pursuit of the enemy fleet untenable.

[Reepicheep]

Couple more rounds have passed. Norway and Greece have fallen, and Allied naval operations in the Baltic were repulsed with minimal apparent gains, and significant losses.

A UK air fleet was destroyed performing an intercept (had it lost one more point in its own attack on the previous turn, it would have survived, as it would not have intercepted). However, a second German tank was annihilated, and another enemy army was destroyed on the French frontier. Friendly casualties in the heavy fighting include De Gaulle's tank group, a French army, and part of the British Expeditionary Force. A thinner line now separates Paris from the slowly advancing German war machine; but it still holds, however tenuously.

In the Mediterranean, Tobruk is being attacked, and is nearly isolated. And in scientific news, the UK has achieved level two jet technology.

[Jollyguy]

Message for Rannug;

I've gotten your e-mails asking if I'm ready to start the second round, and I've responded to each one. However, it seems like we're having cross continental mis-communication, as from the tenor of your latest messages, you're obviously not getting my replies.

Either here or in e-mail let me know how you want to proceed. If our ISPs aren't willing to talk, or at least not mine to yours, then we may have to consider tcp'ing. I'm free Friday and Saturday nights for about two hours at a stretch, starting about 10:30 p.m. board time.

Bob

[Reepicheep]

Two more rounds have been entered into the history books. The French line has collapsed, though the the last enemy tank army was destroyed in the process. The Alpine divisions were moved to defend Paris, save for a single corps that took to transports to (hopefully) fight another day.

Another enemy army was destroyed as the German army inexorably drew nearer Paris, costing the two remaining French air fleets to do so. The ferocious fighting is perhaps paying off, as I can only see four or so enemy armies left (though there are plenty of corps). The French have fought well and hard, contributing to the destruction of three panzer armies and three infantry armies. The French research point, a badly-damaged air fleet, and a damaged French HQ were sold to finance a more tenacious defense.

After bitter fighting, the Canadian and BEF armies retreated to French ports- the Canadians in particular achieving a narrow escape from encircling enemy units.

Tobruk is holding, and an Italian air fleet has moved in to help defend the port.

[Reepicheep]

Terry and I have played quite a bit since the last update. France fell quickly, but not before another Germany army and a German air fleet were destroyed- bringing their KIA casualties in the French campaign to four armies, three tanks, and an air fleet. I'm hoping that makes up for not retreating good French units to the UK.

By the way, Brest was held by the Canadian army, and has not been contested; but the BEF army was destroyed before they could escape. And the KIA enemy air fleet was unexpectedly destroyed in an intercept, as my KIA air fleet was earlier.

The extent of the blow struck against the Axis in France is perhaps evidenced by an attack on Vichy that took two turns to complete, and an attack on Spain that is taking a bit longer than normal.

Meanwhile, the UK advanced to level three jets. (According to the latest intelligence, Italy has advanced to level two, while Germany has not advanced at all from their starting level of two.) The new Spitfires were used in action against the Swedish air fleet based in Norway, and performed well- resulting in the destruction of the enemy unit.

[Gavrok]

Quck summary of the Gavrok (Axis)- Xediel game

Turn 1 invasion of Poland, and slow slogging match into Greece commenced.

The RN begain pounding on Italian positions at Tobruk

Turn 2 saw the war expand as Brussels, and Denmark fell to the blitzkrieg. Front line Greek troops remained unaffected however a surprise Italian corps landed behind the Greek lines to take elastic bands out of the French planes. The allies responded by destroying german corps in Belgium.

Turn 3/4 Greece remains at standstill as the Italians batter themselves on the solid Spartans. An Italian sub strays too far out and is killed by Med RN. A AeroItalie counterattack sinks a RN battleship at a cost of 1 kamikaze fighter.

Meanwhile in the West 1 more French army is lost, however a German panzer and army fall foul of French armour. Expected airsupport did not materialise as the whole Luftwaffe and Strategic rocket/ bomber elements took out 2 carriers, who had earlier provided air support. Poland realises the futility of it all and sides with axis.

Turn 5 - All German air grounded for whole period to celebrate loss of carriers. Good time to have holiday since they all had to wait for their planes to be rebuilt. Without aircover the German army cant get into France and lose another army in equal exchange. Generals already looking at manpower shortage as Luftwaffe took them all! Useless scientists are now being reeducated to be more useful members of society....front line trench warfare in France or iventions...their choice in a pseudo-democratic society!

[disorder]

good comments on the aar's! much appreciated

[Reepicheep]

Glad folks are enjoying the AAR's!

Not much to report from the next couple rounds. Air units harassed the Swedish armies in Norway, while Spain and Portugal were taken. I transported the Gibraltar garrison to the empty Spanish city in Africa before the Italians took it, thinking it might hold up the Axis longer. We'll see...

None of the Axis minors have yet joined the war, and neither has Yugoslavia.

[xediel]

heavy fighting in france ! i'm still succesing in pluging all the holes and making some kills but the germans keep rushing in and their superior air advantage gives them a punching power that is shattering my defensive wall.. destroyed a tank unit this turn but i fear the one that is still loose on the battlefield could do much damage.. i'm holding on in greece but i can see the italians got something cooking in the background.. trying to take tobruk but still no luck.. have to keep trying.. anyway what happens in the few next turns is going to shape the game... regreting now that lc gambit that i didn't make on the 2nd turn, had the manpower that's for sure !

[ July 23, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: xediel ]

[Gavrok]

Gavrok-Xediel game

After a regroup the Germans launched forward again into France. 2 allied armies died alongside 2 damaged aircraft. Whilst being greedy and conserving other air for other tasks Luftwaffe lauched a str 2 axis biplane fighter at a 1 str corp and lost it!

Allied counter attack destroyed a panzer and brought front line army strength down to 50%. However this reduced allied effectiveness and 4 armies/corps died subsequently.

2 very weakened German armies now out on a limb but hopefully there are not enough allies to eliminate them. France has chewed up a lot more resources than I've ever seen. Didn't realise I can now buy rather nice Australian wine instead of the French plonk!

[Gavrok]

PS Xediel quoted

"i can see the italians got something cooking in the background.. trying to take tobruk but still no luck"

Well I can honestly say Mussolini couldn't cook ready made pasta...and the only thing being cooked is Italian bums on sand as they haven't got off their a**es and done anything.

Any thoughts on Italian plans welcome....however I think we'll just sit in harbour for another couple of months.......or 5 years!

[JerseyJohn]

Enjoying these things -- having a little trouble telling who the players are without a scorecard but I'm still enjoying the running commentaries.

Glad there haven't been any big problems.

[Reepicheep]

Terry (Axis) vs. Reepicheep (Allies):

Still not much to report. An Italian HQ has landed in northwest Africa to conduct operations against the Free French garrison. No movement has been spotted towards the eastern Mediterranean, which is a UK stronghold.

Brest is still held by the Canadian army, while airplanes, both land-based and carrier-based, still harass the Swedish forces in Norway.

A Dieppe-style commando raid into Denmark reportedly resulted in the destruction of much of the industrial transport infrastructure leading to Scandinavia; the Germans should be weeks in rebuilding it. (Too bad you can't target that with bombers, hey? ) The commandos moved inland to the Kiel port, inflicting significant damage on a dry-docked battleship. Evidently the operation was a complete surprise; however, there appears to be little chance that they will escape annihilation.

[Reepicheep]

Terry (Axis) vs. Reepicheep (Allies):

The commandos were counter-attacked by (of all things) a rocket detachment and a carrier. They were not destroyed, and took the newly-vacated port of Kiel. An overstrengthed enemy army moved nearby, which spells the end of their brief but destructive mission. The continued presence of the commandos has prevented Germany from beginning work on rebuilding damaged infrastructure, incidentally.

The Free French in West Africa were annihilated by German air attacks and Italian infantry. Italian infantry were also spotted approaching Alexandria, and UK forces retreated closer to the city. UK airplanes continued bombarding Norway, and began attacking the French mining district.

The last regular Axis minor joined, and I suspect Yugoslavia will coup soon. And intelligence indicates Germany has reached level three jets.

[Jim Boggs]

The AAR's are great guys, but my I make a request for dates being included in them? The date really allows perspective for the reader.

Thanks

[disorder]

DATES? YOU SAY WE NEED DATES?.... we dont need no stinkin' dates.

but really, good point mr. boggs.

also pictures....PRETTY ones.

and links to historical info if you please!

back on the internet from GODS COUNTRY, USA., at a whopping 56k

[disorder]

30 days left in the GREAT 8 round! eventually only one will be left...

just like in logans run (the movie) where you got to a certain age, and then you were killed in a special ceremony.

well, perhaps you dont actually get KILLED in jerseyjohns ceremony (i havent asked him yet)

are all games going smoothly?

i would like to throw out a question for the eventual finalists of the tourney, whover they may be, (they will certainly be among the 8 though) and any of the remaining 8 can comment on it.

if i fixed it so during the CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND each of THE OPPONENTS e-mail turns was downloadable and viewable by the common man, or a small select group who wished to view each turn as it happened, would it bother you?

theoretically, this is what would happen.

opponent #1 would make his turn, save his e-mail pbem, and instead of e-mailing it, would upload it to a web page. pbemtourney.sav would appear on web page to be downloaded by opponent #2, and all who wanted to view the games progress, etc.

i just think it would be neat to view another game(in progress) like this, especially a championship round.

i can e-mail you the full boring details of how it would be done, but it can be done in the same amount of time.

what do you think? comments from the remaining 8 players only, please.

[Reepicheep]

Sounds interesting! If it's feasible, and if there's enough demand to warrant it, why not?

[Reepicheep]

Terry (Axis) vs. Reepicheep (Allies) - Early 1942:

At least, I think it's early 1942- I tend to lose track of that (sorry!).

Anyhow, the Italian offensive towards Alexandria has progressed slowly, as the Axis focused on eliminating the eastern Mediterranean fleet. Two Italian battleships were destroyed, but most of my ships in the area were either sunk or badly damaged thanks to a lack of air cover. UK air fleet were sent in too late to help many of them, but early enough to make the Italians pause in their advance. They have level two jets, but the UK has level four jets. German level four jets have been swapped into position, and I anticipate a massive air battle soon.

Meanwhile, a UK carrier was sunk in the Channel, but destroyed the attacking jet in the process. Yugoslavia couped, and was overrun.

The US is about to join, and the UK is preparing for them. Brest had to be abandoned however, as a level three infantry army backed by a rocket detachment began an assault.

Russian readiness is over 50%, and climbing.

[disorder]

my name is disorder...general disorder. you can be seated.(scuffling of chairs/coughs).....

at ease, men. smoke em if you got em.

i have brought you all here today to comment on the so-called "pbem tournament".

things have been running smoothly, and i appreciate all of your comments and efforts involving aar's and postings. these things take a lot of your effort and time and are greatly loved by all of your kinfolk, and your wives and girlfriends back in the states.

now i must mention why i have called you all together here....

a recent new technology has become available to us, and the top brass has decided to use it in our upcoming championship game. it allows a small audience of dedicated men to watch EACH AND EVERY TURN of the championship game as if they were playing it themselves.(gasps and oooh's)

do you men realize what this may mean? you would be able to download each turn and make a play on your own pc as if you were the opponent to one of the championship players!

you could also REPLAY a turn made by one of the players in the championship round, to see how much better you are than he.

our techs are still in the testing stage, but we are ready to forge ahead with the mission at hand.

now the dicey part. freeftp....yes i said freeftp. it would require the two opponents in the championship round to download a small shareware program called "freeftp". instead of E-MAILING your turn each round, the opponents would use the freeftp to upload it directly to a web page so it could be downloaded and viewed by others (and their opponent).

MEN....we have the technology. hitler and his gang are working on something just like this AS WE SPEAK! we cant let this slip by.

thanks for your enthusiastic support, and i KNOW we can use this to kick jerry in the pants. DIS---MISSED

[ August 04, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: disorder ]

[JerseyJohn]

"Yippeee -- we can watch the games !!!"

[Reepicheep]

Terry (Axis) vs. Reepicheep (Allies) - Some time in 1942:

UK and German 14-strength air fleets traded shots over Alexandria, though no units were lost. Afterwards, new level-five UK jets were delivered to the front. The German air fleets retreated, to be replaced by Italian level-two air fleets. An Italian army is poised to attack Alexandria, but can do little against the HQ-supported army with level four entrenchment. If the Axis are to take it, they must use air power.....

The US is preparing to open a second front at some indeterminate point. Russia is around 70% readiness.