sub war

[Gunslingr3]

Biggest gripe I can find with the game so far is the ability of other units to spot/destroy subs. Because of the relative expense of these units (and Germany's land war responsibilities) I've never managed to maintain much of a sub fleet, or make much of an impact with the one you have at the start of any campaign.

Allied success against subs was tied to their ability to improve detection capabilities. Instead of improving naval defense against sub attacks with sonar research I suggest that without sonar research naval units do only 20% percent damage attacking or defending against subs. Ratchet this value 20% with each level of research so that research level 5 would impose 120% damage on subs.

This would obviously require some play testing to ensure balance, but the editor isn't flexible enough to test this idea.

As it stands the Royal Navy can sweep the Atlantic of subs in about a month and honestly never worry about them again. I'm interested in learning whether or not anyone else has found successful strategies for subs that I'm missing, or has thought of ways to improve their contribution.

Gunslinger

[mavraam]

The best use I have found for the entire Axis Navy including those subs is to gather down by Gibralter and break the Italian ships out to the Atlantic. Then move the entire fleet between the US and the UK where you can hammer American tranny's trying to get to Europe.

But on their own, they are more or less useless. I never replace them.

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by Gunslingr3:

Allied success against subs was tied to their ability to improve detection capabilities. Instead of improving naval defense against sub attacks with sonar research I suggest that without sonar research naval units do only 20% percent damage attacking or defending against subs. Ratchet this value 20% with each level of research so that research level 5 would impose 120% damage on subs.

This would obviously require some play testing to ensure balance, but the editor isn't flexible enough to test this idea.

Gunslinger

I would make that a detection percentage

(starts at 25% and increases by 10% intervals),

with a subsidiary increase in damage (not to the

extent of your suggestion tho-120% damage is

a Subroc nuclear warhead ). To compensate, I

would start subs at a 25% chance to dive and

increase that at a like rate.

John DiFool

[sheepshooter]

On the other hand, we should not overrate the German sub efforts. In the end, our U-Boote did not really have any other effect than tying up the British fleet a little bit (while having enormous losses). Sure - in the beginning, it was a huge success, same as you experience in SC, when you move your 2 boats down south and cost the UK ´bout 20 MPP per turn.

I think, the combat values are perfectly okay (how much chance of success would a sub have in attacking a cruiser fleet?). The detection values on the other hand might be a little bit high w/o research on sonar/asdic (and implicit Huff/Duff).

Just my 0,2 cent

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Gunslingr3:

I'm interested in learning whether or not anyone else has found successful strategies for subs that I'm missing, or has thought of ways to improve their contribution.

As with just about anything else, in this wargame or in the larger entrepreneurial world, you need spend bukku bucks.

When I can rotate 5 or more subs -- most of which I do not even purchase unless I have reached tech-level 3, between the main convoy lanes and Marsailles, then I have "succeeded," if that's the right word.

So, you can hit the Brits for an average MPP loss of 25-30 very nearly every other turn -- is it then worth it?

May be. Because you will reduce their fleet, and be in a prime position to deny troop transport from USA. Also, they will not be working overtime and covering London lowlands with coast to coast Spitfires and night-fighters.

But, without a second front, Russia is sooner than later doomed, no matter how inept or unlucky you are with dice rolls.

I guess the hard part -- at least psychologically, is to overcome a natural reticence (... viewing those vastly amassing Red hordes can effect you, dare I claim it? -- subconsciously?) to make that initial 2000 or so MPP investment.

Imagine what bristling, ice-blended spearheads could be constructed for the Eastern Front with that much cold hard cash?

I would say that I have employed this Raeder-raider strategy about 3 or 4 times, and in each case the results were... a little hard to guage, since I was able to destroy well over half the transports that made invasion attempt.

But, would the Eastern front have broken loose a whole lot sooner if I had turned out Panthers & Grenadiers instead?

Now, if the AI would be more patient, and wait until '43 or early '44 to invade France, it may well be a different story. Or, if AI would circle around south, and put Italy to the resistance test.

But, with a human player, I don't know (yet) if this all-out UnterSee effort would be worth it... I guess we'll see, and when we do, we can report back.

[gunnergoz]

The German subs come into play for me when I can build and base them from the French Atlantic ports. The subs play absolute hell on the eventual AI D-day attack. While expensive, I try to keep 2 or 3 level 3 subs out there all the time. I don't bother trying to clobber Allied MPP unless the Allied surface fleets have been dealt with.

[pzgndr]

Instead of improving naval defense against sub attacks with sonar research I suggest that without sonar research naval units do only 20% percent damage attacking or defending against subs. Ratchet this value 20% with each level of research so that research level 5 would impose 120% damage on subs.

Interesting idea. There are two things involved: probability to detect and hit damage, both for subs and ships. Not sure what parameters are in the game now and how they change over time with research, so maybe Hubert can enlighten us and consider some more tweaking. Ship attacks starting low and increasing 20% with sonar sounds good. Sub attacks should start higher but then increase 10% with advanced subs. Overall, ships would gain the upper hand eventually but early damage levels would remain more modest than they are now. Aircraft spotting of subs and attacks should be tied to radar development, since visual spotting was poor. Another idea is to add sub evades to sub dives. Once it dives, it should be gone for the turn unless higher sonar levels can continue spotting the sub. Also, convoy MPP losses could increase with advanced subs. And, if seasonal effects ever get added, the North Atlantic in winter was hell on everybody. These minor changes could turn the sub war into a longer cat-and-mouse type chase with more convoy MPPs lost per sub lifetime and fewer blowout surface battles, as it was historically and is the basic effect we're looking for here. The current game mechanics should easily support this without changing the game significantly; tweaking some parameters is all that's needed.

[KevGaming]

I think the Battle for the Atlantic doesn't get the recognition it deserves in this game.

Both Churchill and Doenitz realised that the side that won the Atlantic war would win the war in the west.

With this in mind I'd like to see Britain's surrender conditions modified to take the Atlantic conditions into account. At the moment the U-Boats are short lived units unless you can get a large amount of them. Even then are they truely useful to the long term strategic goal of winning the war?

In most of the games i've played I use between 5-8 U-boats to sink Britain's navy then position them to blockade her. Ok this makes invasion easier but, can lead to a stalemate war of attrition which Germany will eventually win. However this is a drain on the forces deploying to attack/defend against Russia.

Right back to the point of changing the surrender conditions.

I'd like to keep the existing conditions of taking London and Manchester kept. Plus add the condition of taking London if the Atlantic has been closed for say 3 turns.

This I feel would make the U-Boot a worthwhile strategic investment, and add some historical fears to the game.