New Idea instead or additonally to the Bidsystem

[Dragonheart]

As the bids for the FW game are running higher and higher a found a new intersting system how to strenghen the allies.

The axis player must DOW all minors he wants to capture prior to Barbarossa immedeately. This gives them the essential time to dig in and to organize their defences. Additionally the allies will get much more MPP from the start.

The only restriction for GBP should be that they are not allowed to interfere with own units in these countries.

In that way the axis player has to decide wisely which countries he really need before Barbarossa and will have much more difficulties to get them even when the allied player does not have any own units there.

So new strategies will be needed and maybe even completely new situations will be born.

Maybe this system could replace the Bidsystem but this should be playtested.

Your thoughts?

[Kuniworth]

One problem is that UK not able to interfere in Greece or Norway is not historical accurate.

Another problem is Vichy france. How to handle it?

[jon_j_rambo]

Which countries are people doing "post-Barbarossa DOW's"?

[Dragonheart]

Well let´s say the axis player decides to attack LC,Denmarc,Norway,Sweden prior to Barbarossa then this untis are not allowed to leave their own country nor allied units may move there prior to their fall. (Bergen occupation after the fall of norway still exists).

The same is also valid for Greece,Spain,Portugal,Irak,Swiss,Turkey.

The land units of vichy must stay and their naval units are allowed to leave...

But honestly would you really DOW Vichy? If you Dow to many countries you are doomed....the more countries you dow as axis the more time they have to organize,to dig in and the more mpps are provided for GBP....

[Dragonheart]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Which countries are people doing "post-Barbarossa DOW's"?

Prior to Barbarossa we all normally take in the following order......Denmarc,LC,Norway,Vichy,Schweden,Spain

some DOW also Greece and Portugal before....

but normally Portugal,Greece,Irak and Swiss is Dowed to the same time when Barbarossa starts.

[jon_j_rambo]

Historically speaking, didn't The Fritz only DOW on the USA? The rest of Germany's attacks were against countries without warning, yet, France/UK DOW Germany after Polish rape?

[Dragonheart]

You cant have everything historically in that game, its a strategy game....or do you think the nazis gave the other countries a BID?

Concerning Vichy ...if Dowed it should be dowed immedeately when france surrenders so the have at least 2 turns to dig in.

[Kuniworth]

Dragonheart;

historically axis occupied Vichy 2 years after the fall of France. I think this makes the game a bit to predictable and at the same time not historical.

[Kuniworth]

Actually axis invaded on november 10, 1942 so it's more like 2,5 years later.

[Terif]

@ Dragonheart:

Hmm, why do you want to replace the Bid system ? It is tested since several years and can balance the Fall Weiss scenario nearly perfectly.

If bids go too high, so UK will be too strong at the beginning, then it is easy to change e.g. from 1:5:20 to 1:5:30. But if you introduce a totally new system with rules which countries to DoW and when to DoW them, then it gets complicated and until this would be balanced too you would need a lot of time and tries. Besides, if it is balanced depends highly on the experience of both players and so you would need different sets of rules for all kind of experience levels.

However, if your opponent agrees you can always use every house rule you want and can also try these DOW rules - but I am sure the first dozen games one side will have a clear advantage (in the current version with veteran players Axis will surely win except Germany is killed in France ). For competition games not useful, in fun games and if it doesn´t matter for you if you loose some games, no problem.

If you want to play something different than Fall Weiss with bids, I can recommand Amona´s Fall Weiss Mod2. It is very balanced for veteran players and there are a lot of possibilities for both sides including Allies beeing able to hold the Med if they want to.

Some major problems I see with such a DoW system:

- Allies get the main advantage at the beginning (high income if Axis have to DoW all the countries), so there is again a high incentive to try to crush Germany in France. If it fails Allies have lost, since in the long run Axis have no real disadvantage by the forced DoWs (only temporary until they are conquered), but Russia/USA have no additional mpps, so Allies are toast if Germany can conquer France.

- Ok, Axis will not get Spain before Barbarossa, but this is also no real disadvantage from the mpp point of view. It only limits the possible Axis strategies since then they are forced to defend France until they have conquered Spain - a bad effect in my opinion.

- and this limitations of possible strategies is another heavy problem in this system. Allies are forced to defend France with all means since every turn they can hold it is extremely valuable with this system, so they can´t use other strategies. And Axis have to decide which way they go at the beginning and can´t change strategy any more to adopt to the situation. E.g. if Allies are uncautious in a normal game with bids or too aggressive, then Axis can choose to go for sealion. A sealion is only possible in the right situation and Axis can´t know in the beginning if such a situation will occur - but when they have to DoW the countries at the beginning, then they can´t choose any more. And with all other strategies it is the same, with the countries DoWed they have no choice any more and the game would go a certain way. But in a normal game the strength of SC (and what I like most ) is to be able to change strategy (including which country you DoW and when) according to the enemies actions and to adopt to the situation. Surely, this is still possible in some aspects, but the main path would be predetermined with this DoW system.

[ October 31, 2004, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[SeaMonkey]

You guys want to try out something different with an historical context, that's truly difficult for both sides and no bidding, no gambits? "Sphinx" starts out in Dec. 40. On the Axis first turn LC and France will surrender and will provide a cache of approx. 2000 MPPs. But since Spain has already joined, the Axis minors will not happen and the Yugo coup is very unpredictable...but does happen. Problem is there are very few starting units for both sides...nixing a possible SeaLion, as historical. Gibraltar and the Mideast/NA area gets a lot of attention from both sides...there is no quiet time. Biggest problem for Axis is the USSR is set at 75% readiness and US at 45% which means any DoW by Axis will escalate USSR entry and invite a Barbarossa disaster. Italy is in a quagmire with Greece (historically correct) and needs German assistance...you decide how..how much, but Gibraltar needs to fall fast, according to Raeder's plan and don't dally with NA cause the Brits will have time to reinforce...you must act...husband your forces,allocate your deployments carefully. All the while the UK is sniping at Bergen and Brittany as historical or not...if you control the Allies. Want to use your starting cache for research, then you might not have enough units for Barbarossa...stop Allies in NA/Mideast from taking Iraq. Guess what... as Axis you will probably lose, as historical, but you can win with great skill and luck....the idea, you get a moral victory if you can survive past May 45.