A shift to opening up the med, are we going...

[Iron Ranger]

to dump the std HR of no "land on the same turn as a DOW against Major powers"?

I noticed Zapps post and read the responce's

Should Rambo Rome Invasion be forbidden

I woundered if we should replace it with a more general, even handed (and historical) HR.

HR1) No amphibious (sp) landings unless within a radius of the nearest port strength plus one.

This would mean:

a) low odds for the RRI invasion (only two armys, max)

to force out UK/Egypt or Italy/Libia you would need to march through the desert unless you get a capital-to-port supply route

c) Axis can't invade USA or Canada

d) Axis needs not worry about a UK invasion in baltic till Russia joins, and then only if they hold Riga

e) Axis can perform the Riga seaborn invasion

f) Allies can perform a pre-emtive strike on Italy but the Adritc it too far so it can't be overwhelling

g) UK can still hit Norway-Denmark but Sweden is too far

H) if Gabralter falls to axis no Operation Torch

I) USA can still land on mainland eroupe - but only in Spain

J) Until Norway falls the range of Operation Sealion is limited, and even more so if UK bombs the LC and French ports

Many more adjustments not listed. Think on this, seaborn invasions (or any landing not using a port) took a huge amonut of supply and couldn't just be conducted anywhere. This would up the importance of Str Bombers, port supply, ect.... possiable bringing SC into a more even and historical balance.

One side rule might be if UK falls, the Axis takes over her merchant fleet and the USA brings more of the Pacifc fleet in to the Alantic. Thus both sides can ignore this rule at that point.

Looking for feedback - or a game testing this idea (PBEM?)

4-4 - site was down at the end of last week - :confused:

[ November 12, 2003, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Everything you say is true, once you limit the Amphib range.

As you know, I limit the range to four (4) hexes of a port.

I'm not clear on the range you are suggesting, unless you are saying the range is 11 (10 str port +1). If so, thats way too much.

One thing I have been considering myself, is to increase the range for the Western Allies (UK/US), once the US has entered the war.

Anyway, this is a subject I'm very interested in hearing peoples opinions, since its something I've struggled with for the last six (6) months and have not been able to come up with a good solution.

[Iron Ranger]

I'm not clear on the range you are suggesting, unless you are saying the range is 11 (10 str port +1). If so, thats way too much.

Range of undamaged ports would be 11, 9, 6 for ports of 10, 8, 5 str (also 3&4 if and unsuppled port in russia is held)

If you damage the port the distance would be reduced accordingly.

Resaons for this number, nothing special.

1) Its the max distance a unit and launch and be in position to land (ship in port, unit go's to transport - then can move 10 hexs)

2) Allows the US to still land on the mainland without help from one of the UK/French ports

3) In andvanced version of this I looked at seaborn landings only happening the turn after you launch the unit - thus reason #1 (unit could return to port for 'resupply' then move again to an invasion hex, but the second time it would be port str max (10, 8, 5, 3)

This doesn't effect port to port, ships can use whatever travel route they wish (scouting?) to reach the other port.

- I like your idea of only 4 hex / corps only invsion but feel it might 'restrict' game options too much, though a good idea -

[Friendly Fire]

Hi guys, I like the idea of opening up the med, but I must say the concept of staging a seaborn invasion of Europe directly from North America is not reasonable. The Higgins boats and other landing craft used at the time could never make an ocean crossing. So I think your rule should actually exclude this possibility.

[ November 14, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Friendly Fire ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Thats one of the reasons I limit the Amphib range to four (4).

[Blashy]

So what do you do? Bring US troops to UK 1st?

This only puts the Allies once again at an MPP disadvantage. Spending to transport the same troop twice.

[Friendly Fire]

Yes, exactly what you have to do. Just as the allies had to do prior to Overlord.

In 1944 the effectiveness of the allied infanty was reduced significantly by the effects fo the channel crossing. How could they fight after crossing the Atlantic. The notion is crazy! Expecially when seaborne landings give you fantastic combat effectiveness in SC on the first turn.

Game balance and MPP issues can be address by changing initial resources (bidding or scenario design)

FF

[ November 15, 2003, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Friendly Fire ]

[Iron Ranger]

The Higgins boats and other landing craft used at the time could never make an ocean crossing

Never happened, Higgins boats were unloaded from LCS, and LCT. Read Steven Amborses book 'D-Day' for a good example of how the different ships were used.

Operatin Torch was (the US side, total operaion was really UK, USA had a minor part) launched from the US and landed on VF N Afirca. The troops were combat loaded and had to stay that way for the entire trip, and unique case and would never have been done against a 'good' opponent.

Game balance and MPP issues can be address by changing initial resources (bidding or scenario design)

Personal I find bidding to be the bigest non-balance/historical issue we have. Its nice because the Allies have lots of options in the begining, but unless your very skilled it only backfires and gives Germany more options to gain exp.

I see the game as more a time equasion, what can Germany do before she has to take on the big Red bear, more MPPs just drives up the air race and creates more corps for the germans to kill. Try bidding on Russia Readiness for sides (or forced trigger on the ST), and the game will turn on a dime. No longer must UK risk all in gambit to brunt the Gray host, now Germany must take risks to win. As she should!

[Liam]

the limitation sounds like a breath of fresh air. I recall my father telling me him travelling in ship the quarters were soooo cramped. It's not easy to load up. The particular craft used for the initial opening of the Beachhead at Normandy<including paratroopers> were different the many of the various craft that followed. They were specially suited for quick flatbottom ships to pull right up on a beach and unload... marine-special forces-paratroop units opened the floodgates for the endless amounts of equipment behind them!

Perhaps adding in a bomber rule to increase the level of amphibious effectiveness?

now adays I notice I do and many others abuse ports to get the bonus you get against your enemies. Perhaps we should do away altogether with corps landing and assualting enemy positions? it costs signficantly more for an army/tank to do it and in that case people will pay greater for that extra bang?

[Iron Ranger]

I limit the Amphib range to four (4).

Don't get me wrong, I don't know what distance would be best (only play testing and advanced thinking will show us this). Maybe 4 is right, maybe having it attacked to the supply str of the port is right, more then likly is a comprimise between the two.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I used the range of four, based on the actual ranges that Amphib ships had and the doctrine they used. I'll briefly explain how the Amphib ships are organized in the US Navy.

There are two basic amphib ship categories, landing ships (LSnn) and landing craft (LCnn). As any squid will tell you, a ship is designed to travel the ocean. A craft is designed to travel over water.

Up until 1941, you had LST's (landing ship tanks) and LCI's (landing craft infantry). LSTs unloaded using smaller craft topside. Landing boats if you will. While LCI's had a front ramp, they were never intended to assault a beach. The ramp was there for quick loading and unloading of the infantry. The British were lend-leased quite a few of both types. The LCI's had quite a few variations, as in gunboats LCI(G), mortars LCI(M), and rockets LCI®.

While the Navy (specifically the Marines) had done work on amphib assault ships before WWII, because of WWII, the money started to flow in. One of the end results, were landing ships that could be flooded, allowing the smaller landing craft to leave the landing ship under thier own power. So starting in 1943, that gave us landing ship docks (LSD). In 1944, you got landing ship vehicles (LSV) and landing ship mediums (LSM).

This lead to a development of smaller landing craft and even smaller landing vehicles. This is where the Higgins boats comes in, as its a LCVP (landing craft vehicle personnel) and the DUKW (amphib truck).

So now, as long as you had enough LSV, LSD, LST and LSM's you could load your forces up on them, go where you needed to go, flood the bottom of the ships and have the smaller LCM, LCP, LCV, LCVP, LVT, DUKW, LCT swarm the beach and do an amphib assault. But there was a problem.

The guys who operated these amphib ships, who called themselves the 'Gator Navy (because they were not considered true "blue water" sailors), were easy targets. They referred to thier ships as "large slow targets". So while it was possible to do, it was highly unlikely that any targeted beach would be far from support. Especially since you had to constantly bring supplies ashore to sustain and expand any beachead you obtained.

Thats why I limit the range to four. If I had control of the software code, I would restrict the range even further and expand it based on when the US entered and what year it was (to represent amphib ship development).

[Blashy]

I like the idea of didding on Soviet readiness, more so than MPPs, bidding on MPPs just make the game feel like playing cards to me :eek:

[Codename Condor]

Ive played with this HR and i can say that this HR really can drive to a different game so i like it. We used also the russia readiness bid.

- the MED now is totally open. Allies can hold Alexandria and take Iraq, mixed with an attack to the italian navy. If axis wants to fight in africa they could prevail operating AFs but leaving others zones unprotected, time would be critical.

- On the other hand this HR grants Axis to land in Riga and could lead to a powerful Barbarrosssa op.

- Allies can still launch op. in Norway but not in Morroco. But tehy not need to worry to keep units in USA/Canada.

This rule helps Allies and tho couild make the game balanced. They could even abort a Sealion Op. knocking the brussels port. Bombers now more usefull. If u mix this HR with Russia readiness bid and u r playing axis u cant make many mistakes. Also, Russia will be weak and i would help them: some extra MMPs for them could help em to set a defense, Heavy Tanks level 2.

[Shaka of Carthage]

- Allies can still launch op. in Norway but not in Morroco...

I'm confused by this statement. How can this be true, if the Allies still hold Gibralter and/or Malta?

[Codename Condor]

im assuming, tho i didnt say, that gibraltar has fallen to axis, USA troops no longer can make an invasion on morocco. Malta should be taken by axis also to avoid some surprises and that way u can leave algeria and other cities without garrison.

[Shaka of Carthage]

If Gibralter has fallen, then North Africa should be out of reach of the Allies.

The only port left to the Allies in that part of the Atlantic, would be Dakar, in colonial French West Africa. And since its not on the map, its a non-issue.

[Iron Ranger]

RIght, and so it is, without Gabralter NA is unattackable from the sea. Unless they take Algeria and have a land route to a capital.