How to increase the effects of the Russian Winter and equalize the game a bit.

[KDG]

I was just reading the SC user manual and came across the following:

"There will be a 15% chance of partisan activity during Axis occupation of the USSR. Partisan activity consists of the creation of partisan

units somewhere behind Axis lines within the USSR. This percentage increases to 75% during winter occupation months".

First, does this increase really happen in the Winter. If so, we have some options to make the winter more miserable for the Germans.

We could

A) Make all turns 2 weeks a piece. Thus instead of just 3 winter turns, we would have 6.5 winter turns, thus twice as many turns at 75% chance of partison activity.

or

Keep the weeks as they are, but change the pct to 90%, almost guarenteeing 3 partison units per Winter.

This would make life a bit more hectic for the Germans during the Winter, much like real life. This should also be in the realm of the existing programming.

[J P Wagner]

I have been a proponent of weekly or bi weekly turns with variable regional weather conditions, for some time. I think it opens up many new design features such as what you propose.

[Night]

The Weather is a gritty thing to add to a game. I have seen it in a WW1 game similar to this called Fields of Battle but it didn't really effect thing's to much. The key would be

A) Unit movement is slowed

Attacking unit's have a negative combat bonus. or defender's have a positive one.

C) Diffrent region's have diffrent effects with weather. For example in north africa it probally won't effect much of anything, but deep in russia of course it will.

[KDG]

I'm mainly trying to work with the existing software. Something that could come in a new patch or would easily be implemented into SC2.

The easiest thing to do would be to change the partison rate from 75% to either 90% or 95%. Minor tweek, but easily done.

Changing to equal two week turns would be prefered, while keeping the exact same rules.

[Shaka of Carthage]

KDG

There are currently three (3) variable turn rates.

one week (summer)

two weeks (autumn?)

four weeks (winter)

If you have the winter turns go to two (2) weeks, what would you do with the other turns?

I think I understand what you are trying to do by increasing the possiblities of partisans occuring, but then you would have to address the fact that the "partisan" unit is just too large for it to be occuring so often. Axis player has to guard against the possibilites as it is now. Whats the point in giving him more partisans to kill?

[Fubarno]

I recall someone suggest that Axis reddiness and supply could be lowered in the winter months, particularily in the earlier part of the war.

I don't take credit for this suggestion but it surely is something that would work within the current programming and be a credible recreation of the severe winter effects on the unprepared Axis forces in the early part of the war in the east.

It maintains the simple ellegance of the game system and models the practical effects of "general winter" that will have the Axis players truly dreading the winter turns and the allies thoughroughly looking forward to them. The seasons will actually have a feeling to them as the Russians will be planning offensives while the Axis rush to finish up operations before the winter.

Thoughts?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Fubarno

Axis would have lowered readiness/supply, but not the Allies? Or just the Russians?

[Wachtmeister]

If winter effects are added to the game with the effect of slowing down the Axis, but not the Russians, then the Russian DOW readiness, should be slowed way down, say by about 1 year. [unless Germany attackes the Baltic States or looses in France]

If we want to add winter effects to match history, then it seems fair to recognize that the USSR would not have been likely to attack Germany before late '42 at the earliest. Slowing the USSR DOW "clock" would provide the Axis an option to delay attacking Russia, until Spring '42, to maximize "good weather" turns before the onset on winter.

[JerseyJohn]

KDG

Like the Atlantic, this is an essential area for revision and I'm glad you've started this forum. Great ideas, fine thread.

. . . .

Same Posting is copied from ZappSweden's Forum on the Initial Russian Placement. I posted there before realizing the entry should really have been made here. In any case, it's applicable to both topics. . . . .

If a provision is made for weather would it be within the framework of variable turns or consitent turn legnth?

I'd recommend keeping the variable turn legnth as it reflects hard weather across the entire map. Unfortunately this isn't relevant in North Africa or southernmost Spain and Italy, but that's a minor trade off.

Winter weather, whatever system is adapted to reflect it, should, from the German viewpoint, have increasing severity for units as they move farther east and north in Russia.

I see no problem with units in severe winter areas having a forced inactivity for several consecutive turns. It's even historical. It would allow the Soviets to regroup shattered units (instead of losing them in subsequent combat) and would also force the Axis to plan their offensives for warm weather months. Further, it would put a premium on planning the initial drive to utilize as many warm weather months as possible knowing the Russian Mud and Winter will slow things down, then stop the offensive altogether.

I think Clash of Steel handled the weather perfectly. If we had something along those lines in this game it would be a megaleap in the right direction.

[ February 07, 2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[KDG]

Shaka of Carthage, the turns currently are laid out as follows

Summer 1 week

Fall/Spring 2 weeks

Winter 1 month

My change would be to make summer and winter 2 weeks, while keeping all other rules the same. This results in more chances of partisons in the winter (since there would be more winter turns). This would be the only change.

If it was too difficult to change the way turns are done, I would change the partison pct. in the Winter from 70% to 90-95%.

Remember that Hubert Cater wanted the russian winter to affect the Germans only, in a reasonable way that was easy to program. Thus he made partisons go from 15% chance up to 70% during the winter.

I'm just extending what the programmer already intended by either extending winter or by increasing the % chance for partisons. This could also be toggled off, since it is already a listed option.

In practical terms, the added result is only 1 or 2 more partisons per year. So we see slightly reduced supply, and the usage of a plane or two to kill this unit. This would remove a slight bit of pressure from the russian line in the winters of 42 & 43. (The axis isn't usually deep enough into Russian in 41, so partisons wouldn't show up, in my opinion, in 44 I'd hope the Russians are finally pushing back the Germans).

Most people(look at the bidding system) think that the Germans have an advantage. This would tweak that advantage slightly, and can be done with the existing programing in the game now.

[Fubarno]

Shaka:

Just trying to keep it simple and programable within the current SC framework, I suggest that only the Axis forces on the eastern/Russian front suffer from lowered reddiness and supply during the winter months.

Perhaps only the first winter of the invasion of Russia will the Axis suffer severe effects. The effects could be modeled back to represent better experience, preperation and supply for the Axis troops on the Russian front in the later years of the war, in regard to winter turns.

JerseyJohn:

I agree with you that CoS portrayed the winter months as well as the rainy months quite satisfactorily and that a system such as this in SC2 will be mandatory improvement/upgrade in the game play.

[ February 07, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Fubarno ]

[JerseyJohn]

Fubarno

Nothing sends chills up the Axis player's spine quite as much as that dread CoS message Russian Winter Strikes! :eek:

Being bogged down in that repulsive looking brown mud is no picnic either. Glad you feel the same way; things like that help make the game.

[ February 08, 2003, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

KDG - This would make life a bit more hectic for the Germans during the Winter, much like real life. This should also be in the realm of the existing programming.

2.1 Russian Winter Simplified

2.1.1 Visual Effects

• December: Land hexes numbered (xx, 02) or less gain a white tint indicating the coming of winter (including the hexes around Scapa Flow).

• January thru March: All hexes in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Romania, and Russia gain a white tint.

• April: Land hexes with number (xx, 02) or less retain a white tint indicating the end of winter. All other hexes return to Normal.

• April. All hexes return to normal.

2.1.2 Game Effects

• The cost to operate units into or out of a white tinted winter hex increases by 100%.

• There is a chance that air units operating out of a white tinted winter hex will have their operations impaired.

o 25% Grounded, air unit can not move or spot. This increases to 100% if the air unit is within 2 hexes of another grounded air unit. This simulates the effect of a winter storm that covers a wide area.

Related Technology: Winter Equipment

o Winter Equipment reflects the care taken to equip one’s troops to fight and move during winter conditions. Each level of Winter Equipment reduces the chance of an adverse winter effect by 20% and increases the readiness of troops fighting in a white winter hex by 10%.

o An air fleet in a winter hex with Winter Equipment Level 2 has a 15% of being grounded instead of the normal 25% and a 60% of being grounded if within 2 hexes of another grounded air fleet instead of the normal 100% of being grounded.

o The penalty to the cost of operating a unit in or out of a winter hex is reduced by 20% per tech level. Thus a unit with tech level 2 incurs only a 60% increase in the cost to operate into or out of a winter hex.

o Each level of Winter Equipment gives a unit a 10% readiness bonus when defending in a white winter hex or attacking a unit in a white winter hex.

Starting Technology

o Russia starts with Winter Equipment Tech level 2. This gives their units a 20% readiness bonus when fighting during the winter months. Russian planes are less likely to be grounded during winter months.

o All other powers start with Winter Equipment Tech Level 0.

Expected Effect on Play

o This will make it harder to operate new units within, into or out of Russia during winter months. This makes it expensive for the Germans to send reinforcements in or withdraw threatened units during the three winter games turns. It also makes it more expensive for Russia to shift units between the Northern and Southern fronts during the winter.

o Units with Winter Equipment tech advances will have an advantage when fighting in winter hexes due to the readiness bonus they receive.

o The chance of having your air units grounded will limit a player’s use of air power during winter months. It will also encourage players to disperse air units during winter months rather than risk a storm grounding all planes within an area.

o Germany has an incentive to press attacks against Russian forces during the non-winter months and consolidate their position during the winter months. Russia gains a bonus to attacks made during the winter months.

[ September 19, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[kurt88]

SC2! Will it ever get here?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

I don't see the negative effect of winter on effectivness, unless it was implied by the increase in the movement cost. Otherwise, the increase in effectiveness will result in some units being more effective in winter then they were in normal weather.

I forgot the second point I wanted to make, so will have to add it later if I rememeber it.

[Piumarcobaleno]

Raising Partisans % isn't that effective: often a good player is able to cover every spot partisan-sensitive with a corp, eventually negating partisans uprisings...

Maybe setting non russian (so even British or Free French) HQ in Urss to be at supply level 5 in winter turns will do the trick...

[ September 19, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Piumarcobaleno ]

[Edwin P.]

Shaka of Carthage

I was trying to reduce the effectiveness of German offense operations during the winter by;

1. Substantially increasing the cost of operating reinforcements to the front by 100%.

2. Allowing for the chance of Air Units to be grounded during winter months.

3. Providing Russian forces a 20% readiness bonus when fighting during winter months.

Another way to express this is to reduce the readiness of all forces by 50% during winter months and give them a 10% bonus for evey level of Winter Equipment Tech. I just thought it easier to give some units a bonus when fighting during the winter as compared to other units.

In each case the Russian forces gain a bonus due to their starting with Winter Equipment Tech Level 2.

Perhaps the Russians should receive Winter Tech level 3 or the chance for air fleets to be grounded should be increased to start or perhaps I need to rethink my entire concept? Or perhaps add a variant of Pirumarcobaleno's idea? See below.

Piumarcobaleno - Maybe setting non russian (so even British or Free French) HQ in Urss to be at supply level 5 in winter turns will do the trick...

Now that's an idea. But instead of saying non Russian HQ's lets have the Winter Equipment Tech affect this. This means that players can vary the effect by achieving different levels of investment in this area. Just give the Russians a higher tech level in this area to reflect their home turf advantage and short supply lines.

Example 1:

The supply level of HQs in a winter Hex is reduced to 5 + Winter Equipment Tech Level. This means that Russia with Tech level 3 would have its HQs reduced to 8, while Germans with Tech level 0 would be reduced to 5.

or

Example 2:

HQs in white winter Hexes can supply 1 unit per Winter Equipment Tech Level. Thus Russian HQs could supply 3 units during Winter Turns (Tech level 3) and German HQs Zero (if at Tech level 0). This would put a crimp in German offensive operations, even if the Russians can not field any HQ units.

or

Example 3:

There is a 50%(or 75% or 100%) that a HQ unit in a white winter hex can not supply any units. The chance of this occuring is reduced by 10%(or 15% or 20%) per Winter Equipment Tech Level. Thus reflecting the uncertainity in getting supplies to the troops during the winter.

Any comments?

[ September 19, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

In mid-July 1941 Hitler and his top generals decided the war in Russia would be over in weeks, so they neglected to make plans for the winter. As a consequence tens of thousands of German soldiers simply froze to death out in the field. Also, German mechanized units and the Luftwaffe were not given extreme weather anit-freeze and their machinery, including artillery, became useless when the temperature dropped below a given temperature. The Russians, of course were used to these things on a regular basis and it provided no difficulty for them.

Ideally there should be something in the game to reflect this unpreparedness for the the Germans in the first winter. The second wasn't as bad and they were acclimated by the third, but by then it was all but too late.

[Edwin P.]

Jersey John

1. Your comments reinforce my belief that SC needs something like a Winter Equipment Tech/Investment option. Then Russia could start off with a higher Tech level in this area and the Germans would have the opportunity to invest in this area to overcome their deficiencies.

2, Based on Jersey John's, Shaka's and Piumarcobaleno's comments here is my revised idea, feel free to suggest alternatives / improvements.

a. In winter hexes HQ units can supply 1 unit per Winter Tech Level. With Germany starting at Tech level 0 this should recreate the effect of a sharply less effective army during their first Russian winter. If Germany invests 2 chits in this area by the second winter Germany should be at Winter Tech Level 2 or 3.

b. In winter hexes Air Units have a 75% minus 15% per winter tech level to be grounded. A Grounded Air unit can not move or spot or intercept. Russian air units would have an initial 30% to be grounded due to starting at Winter Equipment Tech Level 3.

c. In winter hexes Armor units have a 60% minus 20% per Winter Tech level to be immobilized by the extreme cold. They can not move but can attack adjacent units. With Russia starting at Tech level 3 Russian armor would have a 0% to be immobilized while the German armor at Winter Tech Level 0 would have a 60% to be frozen in place.

d. The cost to operate units into or out of a winter hex increases by 100% less 20% per Winter Tech level.

e. New IdeaAn unsupplied unit in a winter hex not adjacent to a friendly controlled port or city hex has a base 5% less 1% per Winter Tech level to receive 1 point of damage due to cold weather. At tech level 3 Russian units would have only a 2% (1 in 50 units) of taking cold weather damage while German units at tech level 0 would have a 5% of taking cold weather damage (1 in 20 units).

A winter Hex is any land hex during the months of January, February and March located in the Countries of Russia, Finland, Sweden, and Norway (and Romania?). Ideally these hexes would take on a white tint during these months.

As each winter month is one turn long these rules will affect 3 turns each year Germany will have to decide if it is worth while to invest in this technology.

This will also affect the strategy of sending UK airfleets to Russia as they will most likely not have the benefit of Winter Equipment Tech.

Winter Equipment - This technology represents the investment of resources in preparing troops to fight and move during severe winter conditions.

Each tech level in this area:

1. Allows HQ units in a winter hex to supply one combat unit.

2. Reduces the chance for air units in a winter hex to be grounded by 15%. (from a max of 75%)

3. Reduces the chance for Armor units in a winter hex to be immobilized by 20%.(from a max of 60%)

4. Reduces the penalty for operating units into or out of a winter hex by 20%.(from a max of 100%)

[ September 20, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

I agree entirely and you've broken it down excellently.

[pzgndr]

SC needs something like a Winter Equipment Tech/Investment option

No. What we have now is a relatively simple and abstract research model that goes from Level 0 to Level 5. What winter equipment tech would possibly span that range?? Nothing. And it's not like the Germans didn't have winter equipment; they just made a very poor decision not to stockpile it for use when they needed it.

We should have a basic weather related effect in SC2. Something that affects action points, readiness, spotting ranges, etc. in a reasonable manner. For the first Russian Winter, that effect could be more severe for unprepared Axis units unless a game variant or other variable permits better preparedness. Keep it simple.

We don't need to overload the research system with a bunch of minor issues like winter equipment that are basically binary events and not broad technical capabilities which changed significantly over the WWII years. Unless you're proposing a much more complex research system like HOI for SC2, and many of us are firmly against that.

Along the lines of these minor issues, like winter equipment for Axis and improved landing craft for the Allies and other issues, it may be best to have various on/off variants for each side. Let players select one or more at the beginning of a game, or have them randomly selected, and take it from there. Let's limit the research system to those techs which were most important in WWII.

[JerseyJohn]

I'm sure either approach would work; we went through the research issue some time back.

In any case, the simplist solution is the best, which I'd say is the event method mentioned by Bill. I also like Edwin's idea, but it may well be less appropriate given the game system's limitations.

So, we can drop Edwin's research idea and incorporate this instead as part of Edwin's Decision Tree idea. Looks like Edwin comes up with a lot of the good ideas in this Forum!

< Click Here for Edwin P's Decision Tree Thread >

Or it could partially listed as an option. As Bill says, the historical German unpreparedness for the Russian Winter doesn't have to be taken as a constant, only as something used in Historical Scenarios.

The Germans sent military missions to Russia during the twenties and early thirties to get around the Versailles Treaty in training personnel and developing weapons. It's surprising that none of their own military people found out about the effect of extreme cold on petro-chemical products and Soviet methods for avoiding the consequences.

Other scenarios can be based upon the assumption that they learned how to handle such conditions before the historical event.

[ September 20, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Bill Macon,

Excellent point. I was trying to fit the idea into the current SC system. But as you said Winter Preparation is not really a tech, its an investment in equipment and its outcome is certain.

Perhaps, its better to have an Expenditure Screen where one would be 100% certain to get the benefit of the investment after spending a specific amount of MPPs.

Call this expenditure Winter Preparedness. Germany spends 250MPPs (about 10 per Russian invading German unit) and it reaches Winter Preparedness Level 1, Spend another 250MPPs and you reach Winter Prepardedness Level 2. The more you spend the better you are prepared to fight in the winter and the less effect that winter will have on your forces, up to a certain point.

Such a system allows you to adjust the starting ability of a nation such as Russia in the editor. It also allows you to give the player more investment options. Instead of a simple yes/no they can control the amount of resources they want to spend in preparing for the Russian winter. A Rule / Variant option would allow you to turn player access to this screen on or off.

Different Expenditures could have different maximum levels. For example the Maximum level for Winter Preparedness might be 3. The maximum level for submarine production might be 1 (ie you get an immediate 10% reduction in the cost of building subs if you invest 250MPPs in this area). Unlike technology advances this area of expenditures would be reserved for operational improvements using current technology where the payoff is certain.

It also removes the frustration of spending money and not seeing the investment pay off. In this system the player is 100% certain to get the benefit of his investment , for non Tech Investments.

In the case of Germany, would you spend your MPPs on researching technology that may help you or would your spend your MPPs on investments that offer you an immediate payback but more limited results.

Example:

Bomber Production, 250MPPs for immediate 10%reduction in cost of producing bombers vs 250MPPs for investing in industrial technology that hold's the promise of reducing production costs for all units by up to 25% if you make the advancements.

[ September 20, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Yet another concept:

Example: Spend 100MPP and equip 4 of your units with cold weather equipment. Spend 100 MPP more and equip another 4 units with cold weather equipment. Spend 500MPP and 20 units are equipped to fight in the Russian Winter.

Of course a field would have to be added to each unit indicating whether it has cold weather equipment and the on screen description of a unit so equipped should indicate this property.

[J P Wagner]

BUMP....