What to do with Italy...suggestions...coments...counters...(Long)

[PooBah]

I have been playing around with the game for about two months now and while I can fairly consistanly beat the Allied AI, I know that would change when I play a real player.

That being said, I was wondering what all the learned player out their are doing with Italy. My general strategy is to attempt a "breakout" of the Italian navy through Gibralter.

What follows is a run down, I was hoping to get some counters and suggestions to this strategy.

1) Poland, Denmark, LC, France - by April 1940

2) Vichy, Sweden, Nov 1940

This positions the Italian Navy in Algiers, with a few armies and an Italian HQ. My general focus is to invade Spain amph. via Barcelona with the italians, join with a few german troops from vichy, then portugal, move italian armies to southern France. While the iberian front is settled, the Italian fleet ruduces the port at gibralter to rubble and passes through to park itself off the atlantic coast of US. When the US enters, the Italian fleet is waiting for him, all MPP from italy is used for subs to put into atlantic via gibralter.

The italian fleet is crushed of course, but this draws the British fleet to the middle of the atlantic, the losses encurred at this point make the game simple. SeaLion comences by early 42' or I build a huge army with germany producing about 568mpp before barbarossa.

The AI falls for this every time, I even invade the US a few times with three italian armies and an HQ.

What would the real players do to counter...

Regards

PooBah

[xwormwood]

First of all I would always hunt down your poor italian fleet in my bathtube, the british MedSea. There is plenty of allied fleet to end any dreams of the Duce before the Fall of France.

[Edwin P.]

Great, another strategy for Hubert to consider if he decides to release an AI update.

[PooBah]

The Allied fleet in the Med? No chance, 3 BB's 1 cruiser, 1 sub. vs. 1 carrier, 1 bb, 1 cruiser in the suez and one bb in Gib? The brits could never muster enough firepower at one time to defeat them. Plus the Italian fleet have 4 ports to re-build. Even with the air fleet at malta, with the FOW turned on the sighting distance is never enough until it is two late. It's a matter of concentration, the italians can turn to defeat in turn the suez, then the gibralter, the the vichy in turn, resting after each engagement.

I would like to hear a definative strategy. I read in a book about 20 years ago about the desire of the Italian deep water fleet to get into the atlantic to conduct raids on allied shipping and generally help reduce the pressure on the German fleet. If enough pressure is applied, the Brits have to leave Scapa and engage the Italians, this frees the germans to execute SeaLion or in general inflict such an mpp loss on the brits that the German player can fully concentrate on Russia.

I know the strategy has flaws, I would like to hear about them. The AI is very predictable, I would very much appreciate some real input.

Regards,

PooBah

[Shaka of Carthage]

There is a delay before Italy enters the war. If the Allied player is gonna take out the Italian Fleet, during this delay, he'll move naval units to the Med.

If he is really serious about it (or planned ahead), as soon as Italy enters the war, there will be British and French naval units, botteling up the Italian naval units that are in the south.

After those units are destroyed, the Allied player can then concentrate on taking out the other Ialian naval units.

The Allied player can also do an Italian Gambit... which would involve Allied ground units invading Italy as part of taking out the Italian fleet.

Naval losses in SC are not easy to replace, as there are almost always more important items to spend those MPPs on.

And as I am sure you realize, a Human player won't let you take those nations on the Western Front as easy as the AI will.

[xwormwood]

This WAS my definative strategy.

:mad:

The only thing you have to do is to bring some ships from the atlantic into the medsea. Three or four additional ships (british AND french) should do the trick. Avoid every fight in the medsea (if possible) until the reinforcements have arrived and voilà: finis italia. The french troops in france can hold out long enough to let your combined fleet show the italians who really rules the waves. If one or two lucky italians escape to their harbors: let them go. Better the italian Player repairs useless ships instead of buildung up an army to reign yugoslavia etc.

[JerseyJohn]

I've had that come up in a PBEM game. My opponent went way out with a Mediteranean strategy. I loaded France with Luftflottes and captured London after a few turns; there was no British fleet to stop me.

I would definitely consider that aspect.

[ March 24, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[xwormwood]

Italy got 3 BB, 1 CA and 1 SS in the MedSea.

UK & France got 1 CV, 3 BB, 1 CA and an airfleet on Malta.

If you fight the italians within range of Malta both fleets are more or less equal.

If you bring down the 1 BB and 2 CA (all french) from the atlantic you should win the big battle, even though you might suffer heavy losses while one or two italian ships evantually evade heavily damaged into a friendly port.

Than let us look what fleet stays back to counter a german SeaLion:

2 CV, 3 BB and 2 CA and 2 or 3 airfleets and 1 strategic bomber. The german player got 2 CA and 1 SS (the atlantic subs are easy prey and should be on their last dive on turn 2, 3 or 4). Even against 4 or 5 german airfleets it should be possible to win SeaLion. At least you should be able to fight the krauts long enough to wake up the (hungry and mad) russian bear.

[PooBah]

Thanks for the responses. I do see a few problems with all the above mentioned counters. Particulary the notion that the brits would send part of their atlantic fleet to deal with the italians.

This is the whole purpose of the strategy, to siphon off the brits from scapa to leave them a little more vunerable to a SeaLion, or to inflict such a mpp loss that they can be left to sit while Germany takes on Russia.

The counters discussed that I like the best are the amph. assault of Italy, that has real potential and should probaly be done if the italian breakout is attempted, or even if its not.

I do have a concern with wormwoods idea that the french fleet will offer any help. By the time the Italian are in the war, the french are about to fall, and the vichy fleet can be surrounded and attacked in port before they even move. I have not playtested the role of the free french that much, I am unsure of their survivability when france surrenders.

Again, thanks to all for your input.

PooBah

[Hueristic]

Against a human the entire concept is flawed at inception. Any player worth his salt inflicts soo much damage on the Ictalians fleet before they even move that they run for cover on thier first turn. Sup all popped my head back in for a minute

[PooBah]

Heuristic,

So most players allied human players would send element of the british navy to the med before Italy even joined the war?

That's seems fair, how many and what ships would you send? The Italian have enough their to beat what is currently in the med, and they would have the advantages of ports to repair and they start fairly concentrated. I assume your first moves would be to take the suez ships and park them off the coast of Italy? One problem I see is that the Italians would get the first attack.

I of course may be mistaken, I have not played tactics where I pre-empt a minor power in order to attack first. Is the allied player allowed to park his fleet of the coast of Italy and then declare against the italians? Forgive the newbie question, I just don't even think about gamey tactics like that.

Thanks to all

[KDG]

You can draw the italians into the war by moving ground and plane units in the Med. This bumps war readiness up. Have French fleets waiting at nearby port, Italians in a few turns before fall of France, Italian navy say goodbye as French ships combined with Med. British take out Italians, all in time to get back to the Atlantic in time for Tea and crumpets.

[Edwin P.]

Agreed, and somtimes the allies will move a Strategic Bomber down to Malta or Algiers. This really hurts the Italian Fleet if they come in range, as the bomber has a high anti-ship strength.

(although I usually disband the UK bomber for MPP credits so I can buy another UK Jet or a UK HQ unit or start researching Jet Techs on Turn 1)

[Liam]

The Italians have two very good roles after they survive with a fleet. Mediterrean mopping up of Brits<including Malta, Suez and Alexandria> invasion assistance for vichy/iraq/spain/greece... break out of gibraltar is usually by that point a moot point<with 2 more US BSs and their updated carriers> but with a weak Allies...a pretty good force to hold along the coast with airpower...to harass allied shipping. Give the Italians a big army and use them to defend Europe..while Germany attacks and remeber HQs are as important as twice as many units...

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by PooBah:

Heuristic,

I just don't even think about gamey tactics like that.

Thanks to all

LMAO

While the iberian front is settled, the Italian fleet ruduces the port at gibralter to rubble and passes through to park itself off the atlantic coast of US. When the US enters, the Italian fleet is waiting for him, all MPP from italy is used for subs to put into atlantic via gibralter.

What do you call this?

[santabear]

Have to jump in w/a question for the 2 player vets:

My history books tell me that the key to Sealion is air superiority, not the British navy at Scapa. Has anyone been able to fend off Sealion with little air and just the navy? Or vice versa...can Britain be defended with air power while the navy is off killing Italian battleships in the Med?

[xwormwood]

santabear:

Air superiority is the key for germany, because it got no navy to protect the invasion fleet from the british homefleet. And even with air superiority it would have been VERY unlikely that SeaLion would have had even a smal chance for success.

For the UK the " the British navy at Scapa " was surely the most effective key to close the door for an german invasion. The only lockpick the germans could have used would have been total air superiority. I think i remember that the demand for air superiority was some kind of trick the german admirals used. Goering was proud and ignorant, so he would promise everything to his "Fuehrer". I guess many of these leaders of the "Kriegsmarine" were quite facilitated that Goering promised to wipe away the RAF: he failed to achieve air superiority and no one blamed THEM for the cancelation of operation "Seeloewe".