JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Revenge ". . ..I did not read the posts for which he is being banned as I only stop by once or twice a week and check out the lastest word on SC2, new strategy ideas, etc. If the moderators felt the need to ban him then so be it. Just call me an Old Testament kind of guy." Now let's get this straight, you didn't even read the posts the decision was based on? Right -- those are your own words. Fasinating. Let's delve a little deeper into your profound sense of justice, you basically don't care about what happens to the man because you only come here once or twice a week? Again those are your own words. I don't think you're old testament so much as modern ignorance testament as in Gestapo and lynch mob and Stalinist Purges! The 1932 nazis relied on people with exactly that attitude to look the other way while they took over. Congratulations, finally history in action. Convict him sight unseen because the guy in authority says it should be so! You aren't even interested in knowing the damn facts! Amazing. I hope some day that sort of "justice" comes your way big time! [ May 31, 2003, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 TO ALL If you have a real reason for wanting to see Kuni banned then fine, go ahead and say so. If you have a real reason for not wanting to see him banned then that's also fine and you should go ahead and say so. But to come in and say you're indifferent or don't know what's going on or just want to post something but in the meantime are out to screw the guy, then why not post something positive somewhere else? Unless, of course, you don't mind other's regarding you with the same sort of callous apathy. Something is at stake. Why post if you don't know the facts or don't care whether the guy is banned or or only suspended or, even worse, couldn't care less and want to seem important by being a hardass? Kicking Kuniworth in the teeth is easy. If you really want to seem important go post something brilliant, or even just meaningful, in a Topic Thread and we'll all look up to you. The good part is you won't be hurting anyone in the process. [ May 31, 2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeMD Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 JJ & Rambo: IF you ever create something of your own (like SC and this board) THEN you might understand having a protective attitude towards it. The last I checked neither of you are a moderator (thankfully so) and nowhere do I see you continuing to fund this board after your initial purchase of SC. If the people who are the moderators feel that the person in question is too 'insert your term of choice here' to follow the rules (and warnings) they have laid out and they want him/her gone, that is their perogative. I didn't go looking for the reason (or facts as JJ calls it) why he was banned becaus is was NOT my business. Nor should it be yours unless you are the same type of person and are worried about it happening to you. As for JJ calling me Gestapo, Stalinist Purger, and lynch mob (inciter?) for not wanting 'justice' for the guy I ask you where on this board does it state he is entitled to a trial by his peers? This is a BBS system, created, funded, and maintained by Fury Software and they alone have the right to run it in a way of THEIR choosing. According to you, and others, he was banned for ignoring a warning about his behavior given to him by a moderator. Think of it this way: A regular at the local tavern started getting obnoxious and rude to the other patrons for whatever reason. The bartender asks him to settle down. He refuses and gets even louder. The bartender kicks him out and denies him the PRIVELEDGE, not a right mind you, of returning to the tavern. JJ, how would you feel if I trashed (in a non-criminal way) your 'Extremely Small Business' and continued to do so even after you asked me to stop? Where is the problem? Is it with the moderators or those opposed to moderating? My 'pie-hole' is now shut on this matter. Have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 No one here is demanding that Kuniworth be allowed back, we all made that very clear. We agree that some action should be taken, but at the same time we are REQUESTING that he not be "banned for life". There is a big diffrence between demanding and requesting. If you had bothered to read the whole thread you would have known that. Comrade Trapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Revenge Thankfully my business is too small to be trashed but all the same, on principal I agree with you, I wouldn't like that and would take steps to prevent it's happening again. The moderators didn't like it and took steps to prevent it. Fine, nobody is denying their right to do so. I’ve even offered the opinion that they’re more than fair. What we’re asking is that instead of being banned he be suspended. I guess you’re right, Rambo and myself want this because we are also running around and spamming the site. Very insightful but where are postings from either of us to demonstrate this point? Where are my spam Topics – and I have more than a handful to sift through? You’re also right that it’s good I’m not a moderator – I wouldn’t have the patience for it. There are many professions I’d pass on though I have nothing but respect for those who do them. No doubt you’re a decent person, but you wouldn’t want to be accused of something and have others come along and say you must be guilty or you wouldn’t be accused. So at least examine the evidence before venturing an opinion. Nor, if some sort of decision were made against you that you didn’t agree with would you want to be denied your right of appeal. All I’m saying is apply those same standards here and to Kuniworth. Saying the Forum is not a democracy is lame. We aren’t asking for a vote, we’re asking for the moderators to temper justice with a little leniency. Aside from which, if you or anyone else had really bothered to think about all Kuniworth’s postings over the months, assuming any of the negative or indifferent posters actually read the majority of them, it would be realized that the vast majority of them are positive and he’s been a good contributor. As far as Forum members go, banning isn’t necessary, many of the best contributors have already left on their own. If that keeps up we’ll be left with people who don’t give a damn because they only check in once or twice a week to see what’s up. [ May 31, 2003, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Well Done Comrade ! The excitement always seems to flare up as I'm about to shut the machine and close my eyes. Now that the cavalry has arrived us weary homsteaders can safely turn in. [ May 31, 2003, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 We aren’t asking for a vote, we’re asking for the moderators to temper justice with a little leniency. Huh? This isn't about justice. The moderators, for those who seem to have forgotten a very minor detail, are the same guys running Battlefront.com - which happens to be a business. These forums are provided to us all as a service free of charge and I for one thank them for that. It costs real money to run computer servers and disk space to store all the archived messages on this board. As a business, it is their right to establish some modest standards of decency and enforce their standards. Kuniworth stepped over the line many times and it was leniency which allowed him to continue, perhaps even making the situation worse because he thought he could get away with anything. The kid needs to grow up. And what have we got now? Folks DEFENDING some supposed right to be immature in somebody else's store and being shocked that discipline is being imposed. Go into Sears or Walmart and have a vulgar shouting match and see what the owners of the business do to you. Come on folks, show some respect for Battlefront here and let them deal with the situation. It's their business, their rules, and their right to enforce the rules. As for a ban for life, no. Kuniworth and the moderators should come to some agreement. Let the kid serve his time in the penalty box and then be allowed to play again. Hopefully he'll have learned something. JerseyJohn, I'm not completely insensitive, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Bill Of course not, quite the contrary. I agree with you 100%. By leniency I mean exactly the same thing you've just stated. He did the crime, serves the time, then comes back as a good citizen who obeys the rules. I don't even mind people saying he should be banned for life as long as there's some real reasoning behind it, what I'm against is these harsh statments that aren't based on anything followed by remarks like "And I don't really care" -- of course they care or they wouldn't be posting. And if they care enough to post and make a statement it ought to backed up by something relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 This is starting to remind me of: 1) Tweleve Angry Men 2) My Cousin Vinny 3) Episode of Happy Day's w/ Fonzy on the Jury Bill Macon --- This isn't the same as going into Sears/Walmart & screaming vulgarity. Not really, I don't think Kuniworth had SHOUTING CAP LOCKS-ON By the way, remember Rainman said,"K-Mart sucks"? Well, Rambo says,"Sear's sucks". Battlefront.com is not Sears & doesn't have the volume of Walmart. Dr. Revenge, MD, a.k.a., Dr. Death Jack Kovorkian --- Getting wasted in a bar w/ disorderly behavior isn't the same as typing arg, arg, arg, Rambo = Goofy on the internet. By the way, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal either. I'm Pro-Death-Penality, Pro-NRA, vote-Republican or Independent 99% of the time, Pro-Bible, Pro-SC, Pro-Authority, Pro-Police........AND I like the Crime-Dog,"Take a bite out of crime". I've had lots of property destroyed by vandals. Like what? My car got "keyed", I'm pissed. If the proper authorities got the bastard, I'd want my property fixed, but not jail-time. "This side of the law, that side of the law, who is right, who is wrong, who is for, & who is against the law" --- Sung by Johnny Cash in the movie 'I Walk the Line' starring Gregory Peck. Anybody see that movie? Rambo-Hollywood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Rambo, how can you be "pro-law" and "pro-death-penalty" and still demanding, that the admins shall forgive Kuniworth? They draw a line, he ignored this line, he received his sentence. *** The End ***. Wasn't that exactly your point of view? How can you demand forgiveness for kuniworth? Only because he is a lucky fellow which you know a bit better than everybody else? So it would end in demanding "death penalty to anybody, but not to people i know personaly", or what? Anyway, in my opinion the admins should allow Kuniworth a new start here (after he said sorry). BTW: I am "pro-bible" and because of this against the death penalty [ May 31, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Yes, I'm for the Death-Penality: Timothy McVeigh, Wesely Allen Dodd, Ted Bundy, The Snipers, Scott Peterson, O.J.......to name a few. Punniworth --- If you're reading this from a library, how do you like your name be associated with them? [ May 31, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I didnt read what he said, some kind of spamming I guess, i dont think it was too serious but the battlefront people have to take care of the forum, this is a great forum and they dont want it to be spoiled but i do think that he could be temporaly punished, as a warn its enough. Just my 2 cents-justice-worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Well, whether this is necessary catharsis among competitive males, Or 2-D group therapy, hardly matters. Back to rambo's original request. I would agree with his friendly idea that there should be a suspension AND NOT an outright life-time ban (... we don't know this is the case, for sure... it hasn't been written on mountain-stone tablets, has it?). I would only hope that all of our Empathy and Compassion extends to ANY others (and not, say, those who LIKE, or are LIKE us) who find themselves in a similar situation, here or anywhere! Everyone, save certified Psychopaths, or NY Yankee Owners, should have another chance in Life, or SC forum activities. I also agree with those who have said that there NEEDS to be rules and standards of behavior, else the whole damned World will, sooner than later, descend into the most blood-filled and hellacious free for all you've ever seen... you think the situation in Iraq is terrible... JUST WAIT until 2 billion humans go on the self-indulgent, ME first! rampage. :eek: If you would disdain religious restraints, and I am not saying that ANYONE is, then you surely and absolutely require some CIVIL law. The fact that "privileged" folk have BETTER lawyers and get a better brand of Justice shouldn't concern us, unduly, at the moment. Battlefront IS entitled to do whatever they see fit. However, in a Democracy, kind of like we used to have in America, we ARE sometimes allowed to register our opinions and suggestions, though if you control mass media, well, some suggestions matter more than others... anyway, Therefore, I would humbly submit my own... let Kuniworth back, on PROBATION, so that another incident would set him back even further, but not so far that he could not have some HOPE for eventual "reform." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 2-D Group Therapy. That's very good. I like it. Being true doesn't hurt either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I'm reluctant to trust Legal Systems and have reservations against the Death Penalty only because too many innocent people are sent to both prison and death row. It's hard to trust a system that believes in all the justice a person can afford. And, counting star lawyers and expert witnesses (many of whom are idiots) it's becoming a very expensive proposition. On those who are guilty beyond any doubt and especially those involved in any form of terrorism, treason, crooked government or big business thievery against the little guy I've got a different view; hang the bastards from lamp posts, only make absolutely certain you're hanging the right person. Regarding the defense of Kuniworth. I would defend anyone's right to be put on probatation rather than being banned. In Kuniworth's case there's the added fact that he has made many positive contributions. Immer Of course this is Group Therapy! And thankfully so. [ May 31, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 John As an outsider looking in, there comes a point sometime where a line has to be drawn. If the man in question is allowed back after being suspended and than acts up again, should he be banned for life than? Has he been banned before? Perhaps he used up his get out of jail free card already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Panzer Agreed. In favor of probation for first valid offense, then banning if a valid offense is repeated. When I say valid, I mean something like that spamming deliberately causing Topics to be padlocked. I hate that nonsense myself. I can understand it if occasionally a nonsense thread develops and all the postings within are nonsensical -- okay, as long as it doesn't happen on a regular basis. But to go out of your way to be infantile isn't as tolerable. Anyway, to make it short. Suspension first, then, if there's a serious violation, it should either be banning or a second and longer suspentsion at the moderator's discretion. How are you an outsider looking in? You're a mainstay of this fine and glorious Group Therapy Instituion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Thanks, I think.... I meant as an outsider on this topic. I really don't know the guy in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolzemFrumFloppen Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: Dr. Revenge, MD, a.k.a., Dr. Death Jack Kovorkian --- Getting wasted in a bar w/ disorderly behavior isn't the same as typing arg, arg, arg, Rambo = Goofy on the internet. By the way, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal either. I'm Pro-Death-Penality, Pro-NRA, vote-Republican or Independent 99% of the time, Pro-Bible, Pro-SC, Pro-Authority, Pro-Police........AND I like the Crime-Dog,"Take a bite out of crime". Which explains why you would suddenly become "liberal" in your attitude whenever a fellow right-winger dinger is threatened. Kuniworth has done the same stuff on other boards as well. It's too bad he was banned, but the rules are so dazzlingly simple to follow here and can be summed up in one equally clear phrase: Don't be stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolzemFrumFloppen Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Panzer39: Thanks, I think.... I meant as an outsider on this topic. I really don't know the guy in question. This is about the only accurate statement in this thread. No one really knows Kuniworth here; we simply have his online persona present for judgement and -- like all elements of character -- are ultimately in his control. The lesson is: control yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 HolzemFrumFloppen "Don't be stupid!" Much as I'd love to argue with you I can't. You're right and even Kuniworth admits it. We'd only like to see him given another chance after a suspension. Then, if the stupid behavior becomes chronic and manifests itself in continued spamming (as opposed to stupid postings, which is a strictly subjective judgement) then he ought to be banned. [ June 01, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by HolzemFrumFloppen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer39: Thanks, I think.... I meant as an outsider on this topic. I really don't know the guy in question. This is about the only accurate statement in this thread. No one really knows Kuniworth here; we simply have his online persona present for judgement and -- like all elements of character -- are ultimately in his control. The lesson is: control yourself. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 JJ & Shaka... When I mentioned "group therapy" I merely intended to suggest that we, or anyone CAN communicate and work things out... AS A GROUP. Nothing wrong with that, and I benefit from this kind of catharsis or "therapy" as well. (... NOT that this is some kind of "sanctioned" psychological process which has the "taint" of Official State intrusion. That sort of "brainwashing" stuff is... absolute anathema to me.) As originally posted by JoePrivate: ... though that is between the Moderators and Kuniworth. Right you are! I don't believe anyone has disputed this. If the Moderators were unhappy with our discussing this issue, they would have locked the thread. This goes a long way toward suggesting that their tolerance and Good Will are perhaps, greater than some would suppose. :cool: As for the off-hand remark about Character, I would surely disagree that "all elements of character -- are ultimately in his control." Even the LAW allows for extenuating circumstances, "beyond a person's control." This doesn't exonerate or excuse bad behavior, but it does permit some leeway in the kind and degree of punishment exacted. The Mind (... or more modernly, The SELF ) is NOT some sort of Computing Machine that can be fine-tuned or tinkered with UNTIL it attains some optimum level of "normalcy." Everything from Fugue States to brief Hypnotic influences (... as, actual brain patterns altered by TV and Video Games!) and momentary "flights of fancy" where... we might ACT as if a lunatic were in our head due to falling into Lust or "ascending into... Love." Well, there are many other issues to discuss, and so, having been granted the great favor (... it is not a "Right") of adding my opinion to this thread, I now leave the rest up to Battlefront. I am confident that they will do what's fair and appropriate. [ June 01, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 JoePrivate "SC has a small and very active community, and it is positive to see such comraderie for 'one of their own'." Well Said! Agreed entirely with your opinion. As has been noted and reinforced in your posting, no one is trying to justify Kuniworth's behavior, we're only pulling for a second chance. If it turns out to be a recurring thing, then there's no choice but to ban him permanently. Immer Yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree. But the truth is, and I only realized it the other day, I've been receiving therapy here since the first of October 02, which I'm grateful for. Many of our off topic discussions provide latitude to describe past experiences and by actually writing them down and being honest in reading what was written, then comparing it with the experiences of others, we put our own experiences through an honest self-examination that would otherwise not have occurred. Among other things, discussions here have rekindled memories of long dead relatives who fought in WW II, half forgotten street memories I never discuss yet feel free to post at SC and numerous other things I won’t bother going into. Even our occasional forays into old time baseball provide a reevaluation of ideas difficult to find elsewhere. Mixed in with all this is a mainstream flow of WW II and war-game info along with discussions on the nature of man as he was sixty years ago, when Civilization itself was a risk. Solid theories are reinforced and less well founded ones debunked. Is it really that different from what takes place among paid historical scholars? Regarding SC’s function as Group Therapy, I’d like to thank Shaka, disorder and especially Immer Etwas for helping me sort out some mental chaos. Here's hoping we can do the same for our friend, Kuniworth. [ June 01, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 As originally posted by JerseyJohn: ...we put our own experiences through an honest self-examination that would otherwise not have occurred. Agree, 103 % Honest, Gut-throe'd... Self-appraisal. The simplest thing to desire, THE... most difficult thing to embrace, Who wouldn't want to... aspire, For the one, And the ONLY thing, That will... push back! All the empty space? ***I say 103% because you have hit the nail on the head, and, with the additional 3 %... you have, Minerva-like, made Owl-eyes All over the place! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts