Propaganda and Fairness; The End of the Conversation

[EB.]

Problem with this forum is that if you post the same old tired American views then nobody complains.

If you attack the USSR and our Russian people, then that is ok--nobody minds at all.

But if you dare to defend the Soviets (who did win the war, after all) against these slanders, then all of the flea-infested jackals come out.

Well, I will not play that game. I will defend our people and our victories. If you don't want to hear any "new" views, then you are the one with a problem. Don't worry--I have heard the American line a million times. You are the ones with the "closed minds". It is just wrong. Somebody dares to argue with this established American line and you all just go crazy. Such vile and shameful slanders against our people--but to you it seems a little cute joke. We will not forget this. You want to talk about it with us in Russia? Come and visit and we will have a talk in person.

I shall not post in this forum again. My opinions are well-researched and supported by countless hours of real work. You all, in contrast, merely repeat the tired old lies from cheap Western paperbacks. The satanic Masons and CIA establish your Party line, and you all just mindlessly repeat this nonsense. Now my people is directly and rudely attacked by your "administrator" Madmatt in a shameful manner. This is unacceptable. My friends are correct in mocking me for bothering to post messages in this forum. Our truth is for us, and it is ever more abundantly clear to us that the West hates the Russian people. You slander us and then dare to try to steal credit for our victories. By your words and actions, you make yourselves our eternal enemy. This is very clear.

[I/O Error]

Bye bye!

As one note that I just can't pass up... Saying that Stalin butchered tens of millions of innocent civilians for no gain is "vile and shameful slanders"? All right then! Believe what you wish!

Edit: And you know what? Nobody here has attacked the Russian people, they've only attacked the USSR and the Marxist-Leninist theories the Union was based on. There is a huge difference, so sorry if your biased mind can't see that! Frankly there's no country I want to see working more closely with us than Russia.

Note: Okay, that's like 4 edits in 5 minutes. I think that's quite enough.

[ October 25, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: I/O Error ]

[kenfedoroff]

Shane! Shane! Come Back!

[pzgndr]

I shall not post in this forum again. My opinions are well-researched and supported by countless hours of real work.

EB, politics and personal rudeness aside (and I'm refering to a crowd here, not just you), there is room for debate. If we can all get past the mudslinging and refocus on play balance issues and other game isses related to realism and historical accuracy, we'll eventually work out a darn fine game here. Why is this so difficult? I guess we're mostly Type A arrogant SOBs that want things our own way. Let it go. Continue to contribute when you get an opportunity. We all need to hear "the rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say.

[dougman4]

What a shame. We just don't understand each other. Maybe our children or children's children will do better.

I've done my part.

I learned the Russian language, studied Russian culture, traveled to the former Soviet Union, and married a Russian. We don't always understand each other; sometimes our conversations resemble the one above. But, it is possible to love, speak civilly, and live peaceably despite our differences.

Until you’ve made similar efforts, please refrain from making this personal. Meanwhile, I hope EB doesn’t leave our discussion board. It is more fun with divergent views, and we can all learn from interaction.

[ October 25, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: dougman4 ]

[mwenek]

oh, hell, let him go sulk. if he really believes in his opinions and is of a strong character, he'll be back. if not, we'll all forget about him by next monday. that is life.

[Norse]

Now that EB is saying farewell, isn't it time that you guys get off his back? I have read most of what you have been saying, and I really don't know what the properiate comment to it would be. *Sigh* could be the word I have been looking for.

Most of you (not all, I've seen some occational exceptions) forget that EB is 1 guy, but you judge hundreds of millions of people based on what 1 guy is saying. And beyond that, there has been alot of hard dissing of USSR and the communist ideology here. Isn't that really uncalled for? WHO CARES if someone thinks communism works better than democracy or not, eh? Bastards flock to whatever banner is flying highest at the moment anyway, be it this or that.

Madmatt you were right when you said that just because some little guy on a internet forum said my ideology doesn't work, then suddenly I'll say "oh my god! he is right! my government doesn't work!!"

heh

You see, I could very well be typing this from Bejing. China is thriving as it is, even if some people here want to say "but their government doesn't work".

heh, I rest my case...it is that time to move along again...nothing to see here, move along

~Norse~

[I/O Error]

That's because China isn't communist anymore in any real sense.

But yes, in all seriousness I do understand what you're saying. I happen to believe that some light political debate can enhance our game discussions. (It's also impossible to stop them completely, considering the subject material.) I am however sorry that EB felt this way and decided to leave.

[dgaad]

EB (if he ever comes back) and others :

As many of you know, a number of the "heated discussions" took place between EB and myself.

I live in the US and consider myself a "Westerner". I've had many conversations with others here about the relative contribution of the Soviet Union to the victory in Europe. It is true that the majority of Americans are not fully aware of the decisive contributions of the Soviet Union to the defeat of Germany and Hitler, and I have vociferously corrected them -- with historical facts that they are simply not aware of.

My favorite type of wargames to play are in fact sims of the Barbarossa campaign in its entirety. I always play the Russians. I always like to win. I always know its possible to do this with the Russians because of the enormous sacrifices of the Russian and Soviet peoples, who were willing to bear any burden to achieve victory.

I've spent probably more than half of all the reading and research I've done in my life on the German-Soviet conflict. I've never met in person, frankly, any American who knows more about the Soviet contribution to the war in Europe than myself.

I don't say these things to flatter myself or posture. I say it to make the following very important point :

What EB said was not as important as the APPROACH he took

It was his approach to the issues that was offensive. Instead of acknowledging the US and Allied contribution to the war, he called the US and Britain and other allies "cowards" and "cowardly democracies".

Its one thing to talk about the crimes of Stalin, but to raise such a man to the position of divine infallibility is a mistake that should be made with NO politicians, particularly that one.

Finally, EB personally attacked me and several other people on this board when we riposted against his offensive approach, not the least of which was the forum administrator. This is indicative of a closed and bitter mind, and it seems inevitable to me that such a mind would come to dislike the preference for open and CIVIL debate.

You can't argue history with ideologies and expect acquiesence or respect. Stalinism (and any other type of "ism") is an ideology. Stalinism justifes mass murder of civilians as necessary to protect or strengthen the government, just like Fascism justifies mass murder. EB sees the entire history of the WW2 conflict in ideological terms, and to such a person it is not capable of critical historical analysis. That is tragic, but only for that type of person.

A final note : its difficult for anyone in any country to hear someone say that their country is "cowardly", and simply bear that in mute silence. I have three direct relatives who fought in WW2, and I am fortunate to say that they all survived the conflict. They lost many of their friends however. The relatives of those men would have far less patience than someone like me.

I would advise EB to drop his bias for one week, and read a WESTERN work on the Battle of Guadalcanal, or the Battle of Midway, or the Battle of the Bulge. If he can still call every other nation but the Soviet Union cowards after that, then he is truly pitiable.

[I/O Error]

Well said dgaad, well said. Here's hoping that EB takes it to heart. Truly, anybody who ignores or in any way denegrates the heroic actions taken by any of the Allies (or Axis, for that matter), whether they be America or the Soviet Union or the smallest members of the Commonwealth, is merely displaying their ignorance. There is, after all, a reason it was termed a World War.

And if you don't mind, I'd like to quote a part of your post to use in a totally unrelated topic I'm making in the General Discussion forum, about what sort of tactical (or strategic) situations people prefer in war games. I would be quoting this:

Originally posted by dgaad:

My favorite type of wargames to play are in fact sims of the Barbarossa campaign in its entirety. I always play the Russians. I always like to win. I always know its possible to do this with the Russians because of the enormous sacrifices of the Russian and Soviet peoples, who were willing to bear any burden to achieve victory.

[dgaad]

No mind.

[I/O Error]

Thanks much.

Prefered Wargame Situations?

[Mike Oberly]

"The satanic Masons

and CIA establish your Party line, and you all just mindlessly repeat this nonsense."

Sorry to butt in with a guffaw,but this is too rich. Anyway,this person is certainly one to speak of 'party lines'.

And Norse wrote:

'WHO CARES if someone thinks communism works

better than democracy or not, eh? '

True,but that sword cuts both ways.I don't recall anyone slamming the Russian war effort before EB came around,and when he slams the Western war effort,everyone is supposed to turn the other cheek like gentlemen?I seriously doubt EB would reciprocate.If he can't take the rebuttals to his biased comments,too bad.

[Moon]

Did anybody mention Strategic Command in here? No? OK, locking up this off-topic thread...

Martin