Special Units (dreaming)

[Panzer Cmdr]

***Warning Long-winded post***

I accidentally started a new link when I was going to reply to another, so I thought what could I discuss? I neat idea would be to have more specialized units. Some new units could be:

1) Mechanized Infantry - travel as far as tanks, do better in combat in open (non-mountain, non-hill, and not allowed to enter swamps).

2) Paratroops (everyone's favorite) can transport over enemy territories (or load into cargo planes; see below), less capable vs. tanks, limited supply (land at full, then more slowly become unsupplied each turn (to account for them landing with extra supplies because they will automatically be out of supply).

3) Mountain Troops (can fight better and travel further in mountains)

4) Commandoes (same as paratroops, plus ability to destroy/damage industry/resources).

5) Armor recon (perhaps a corps sized armor unit, can go a little further than tank unit but has less firepower but better recon)

6) Attack Bomber and Fighter (split the Airfleet unit into two new units, Attack good vs ground but does not intercept; Fighter intercepts, can't attack ground units but can attack aircraft units)

7) Spy/Saboteur - (unit can only be "seen" by another spy, used to infiltrate enemy and act as eyes behind lines, ability to damage industry and resources though this tends to clue opponent into the location of your spy-limit available spies and perhaps give them cool names like James Bond). If discovered, they are caught and imprisoned or killed or made to become double agents (this would be a random 40/40/20 chance).

8) Marine - Can directly attack land from the transport, take fewer casualties when landing on "undefended" zones.

9) Mobile HQ's - These HQ's can keep up with the Tanks, Armor Recon, and Mech. Inf units.

10) Naval Aircraft - Same as above mentioned aircraft but the bombers and attack are great vs ships. The navy attack and fighter could land on carriers and cost a little more than normal. To pay for the tailhooks.

11) For more specialized aircraft:

a) Cargo plane- carries paratroops or supplies for airdrop.

Gliders - carry glider infantry/supplies

c) Photo Recon - Good recon, very suseptable to enemy fighters.

d) Seaplanes - Can land on sea hexes, good at attacking and spotting subs. Perhaps able to provide supply to other vessels.

12)Ships:

a) Supply ship/Ammo ship - used to supply other ships or troops on coast.

Troop Ship /transport - land units need these to cross seas, not just automatically having ships at a click of the operate command.

13) Refuges - this could be a controversial unit. Allowed to block/hinder movements (units can pass them but impact could cut movement of unit for turn in half). If attacked, automatically retreat and big negative impact to attacker - perhaps in the form of negative MPP's or loss in troop moral.

14) Engineer/Pioneers - Able to build defense, better at attacking defenses.

15) Anti-Air Gun Defenses - can defend vs air in hex plus immediatly surrounding hexes.

16) Rail Guns - Those big rail car guns, must operationally move and have long range (2 hexes). Can't move in forest, mountains, swamps.

17) Artillary/Mobile Artillary/Mobile Anti-air - I know that artillary is supposed to be thought of as part of current infantry units but...if we could have artillary (need to be able to stack limited number of units) it would be great. Then those land units could hit back at ships and being stacked with anti-air units could deter some air attacks.

More thought of units.

This would definety have to tweak game engine to design new specs. of each unit. All would increase what variables go into attacking, defending, movement, detection etc.

This post was just throwing some stuff out for possible SC2. It may not be merited at current hex/unit size and it may require stacking ability in hexes. The above would also tend to increase technology areas but many may desire a more in-depth tech tree. Perhaps a generic pattern can be found thus if a General wanted to deploy his new division of Mountain Commando Paratroops. It would cost ( 150 MPP for regualar Inf. Unit, +10 MPP for Mountain Skills, +20 MPP for Commando Ability, +10 for Airjump boots - it could be made that some things cancel others, like if you pick Mountain Skills they then could not be Mechanized Units.) If you read all this thanks, if you saw something that you suggested earlier (don't be offended it is hard to read all 15,000 post), if you strongly disagree with this due to histrorical or ethical reasons (these are only thoughts for a game, trying to make things fun/flexible).

[Kuniworth]

Look this is a grand-strategic game....enjoy it or go play something else

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

What my colleague meant to say was: "Good ideas, they would certainly add depth to the game, but are just not on the scale of SC."

CVM

[pzgndr]

#2 sounds kinda neat ...

[John DiFool]

While I agree that this isn't Panzer Leader, or

even Combat Mission , there are a few of these

which would work at the scale of SC (I won't

mention the now debated-to-death paratroopers):

1. A distinction between foot infantry and mech

infantry. On the Eastern front German infantry

in '41 moves at 60% of the speed of a tank unit,

which is historically incorrect (even 40%, or 2

spaces, would be generous). I guess it would

require a LOT of extra MPPs to equip your troops

with APCs/halftracks, however (Germany couldn't

afford to do so in the real war, tho the Brits

and US could, albeit with forces quite a bit

smaller than that of the Jerries and Russkies).

3. Mountain troops (must be balanced or everyone

will buy these instead of regular infantry).

8. Marines: I agree that being able to assault

from sea would be worthwhile.

9. Mobile HQ's: I can see Patton and Rommel

getting a speed boost (at a higher cost).

10. Naval aircraft: for playability reasons

there should be a distinction between the CV and

its air group (which would be at a max strength of

5, and, per Dunnigan's comments in his various

books, lose experience if rebasing back on the CV

after a prolonged (>2 turns) stay ashore).

Most of the rest tho, yeah, aren't appropriate for

this kind of game. But many of the above saw

duty in Cl*sh of St**l...

John DiFool

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

The problem with some of the unit ideas, that while fun sounding, would require an "all your eggs in one basket" problem.

If we don't like it for subs, I doubt anyone would like it for para or commando or any other unit that was never deployed in one only spot applications.

Special units like those only work in games at the divisional level.

[pzgndr]

Ah, dreaming. What if you could play a WWII game at the regimental/divisional level, with 1-week turns, 7.5-mile hexes, and all the special units that actually fought? Keep dreaming, for now, but such a game is in the works. This interview about AGW over at Wargamer was released yesterday.

With detail comes complexity. I've been playing RGW for about a year and can attest to how difficult playing such games can be. They have their own rewards, but are not for the faint of heart. SC has a great scale and plays well for a grand strategy game. I would hope to see a little more detail and perhaps a few more special units eventually, but not to the point of making this game more complex that it becomes a burden to play. Let's keep the "grand strategy" level in perpsective and work to make this game a genuine classic in its own right.

[Kuniworth]

As I see it the best WW2 game would be to make a global variant of Gary Grigsbys "war in russia". That would be totally awesome, moving those divisions over the board.

I do´nt agree that mechanized infantry should be present. I see them as a mainstand in the unit called "tankgroup". At the eastern front a panzer-army/group consisted of 2-4 panzerdivisions and at least same or more mechanized infantry divisions. I strongly argue that the unit-system in SC should be kept.

[John DiFool]

Good point about the Panzergrenadiers being part

of the armor units' OOB, but shouldn't there be

a difference in speed between those countries

whose infantry was motorized, and those who

weren't? (if you are adamant about not giving the

player the decision of spending bukku MPPs to

motorize his army)

John DiFool

[Rouge]

i like the idea of panzergraineders but they must be balanced, same goes for the moutain troops as was mentioned previously but your thinking on the scale of divisions not corps and armies. Approx man power for each is:

Brigade-5000

Divison-15000

Corps-75000-100000

Army-200000-250000

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Rouge:

Approx man power for each is:

Brigade-5000

Divison-15000

Corps-75000-100000

Army-200000-250000

This is not directly related to this thread but could someone break this down into frontline troops/artillery vs support personel for me please. By may calculations a brigade would have about 2000 troops which would give 3000 support personel which sound like too many but maybe I am underestimating something?

I apologise for being too lazy to look this up for myself but you grogs love this kind of thing dont you?

[Rouge]

Yeh they are just approx numbers some Commonwealth brigades varied from 3000-8000 men.