New unit needed: BEACH-HEAD COUNTER

[jon_j_rambo]

To really add a "gamey" twist & some reality to the game, add the ability for a Beach Head Counter. This would open options...

Currently as the Allies you must have a port or you're dead-meat(applies for Axis invasion obviously). What good is Normandy? Omaha Beach, etc.? You have to grab a port instead.

Make a unit that costs around $1000, which can only be built in a port, sails & dumps. Once it dumps, that is it.

Until then the Allies must grab a port in France to get supply. This would add to the "gamey" crowd & the "historically accurate" camp.

Of course rules would be needed. Any ideas?

Rambo

[BriantheWise]

Rambo,

On the one hand, it makes sense (I think you have been thinking AR3), but there are three ports in the area. All you have to do is get one of them. You have an HQ, ships, planes to help you. Do you really need a beach counter? I was more thinking what you need on invasion, when fronted by corps all along the coast, is the ability to double stack, attack, and then, maybe land it. That beachhead counter.

You would, supposedly, allow stacking on it, too.

I agree with you.

I have been thinking.

[Rouge]

sorta like those temporary ports in the french side of the channel?

[jon_j_rambo]

Yes, I have been thinking 3R. Currently in SC you must have a port. So what happens the game revolves around those French ports; with Brest being the target of choice (Don't you think the Germans know that?). It would make things more "gamey". You could also rescue guys that were trapped out of supply. It would allow for invasions all over the board. Think about the options in Africa, Denmark, France, & Norway for instances.

How about letting landing craft "unload" onto other friendly pieces with a Beach-Head-Counter? Or land right (attack) on top of those enemy corps parking in the way for a block? Of course all the combat resolution charts would be needed. If Beach-Head-Counter's allow for a supply & overstack, only allow 1-unit per-turn to attack out of it.

The piece could look like a "port", but doesn't repair itself. Make the piece very expensive $1000. Repairs would be very expensive. How about requirement tech-investment even to get it.

Hey, how about more tech-options?

More specific type tech-stuff?

1) USA could buy Marines

2) Russia could get Berserk units like SL.

3) Germany with SS.

4) Let the neutrals get leaders.

5) Change the Operand rules. Limit the number of units, the distance. Or have cost be reflected by distance.

6) Use 3R attrition plays on a front.

7) Let the defender of a invaded country set-up their own pieces as an option. If you want to keep it historical, just limit the set-up area.

8) You could invest in tech to allow for Fortress-Building-Re-Building.

9) Paratroops.

10) Naval leaders

Anyways, Rambo is off to work >>>>>>>>>>>>> OUT

[GumbyDude]

Historically, the Allies built an artificial port after D-Day landings since they didn't hold a port at that time. Mulberries are definitely possible to have at this scale and I think the lack of ports on the map warrant it. There does seem to be some places on the map that should be ports but are not (particularly Spain, Med, Ireland). Try sending troops to Ireland, they'll never come out. Really silly.

I'd recommend not a counter but simple map designation of a mulberry to accept supply and transport. Maybe at cost. Just one or two per side.

The alternative is fix the lack of ports in the game. You can't convince me that Spain has no Atlantic ports when we all know darn well they do.

[82ndReady]

Mulberries are a very good idea, they should be costly to have!

Also why not allow transports to attack when invading??

Plus to counter that what should be included is the following empty hexes that have intresic defensies when attacked! This will cut back on units needed to defend the coast!

just a thought.....???? :confused:

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Well, i am not sure if Muberries should be 1000 mpp, 600 mpp would probably be better. I mean, a mulberry daco didnt cost more for the allies than the germans paid for the Bismarck!

CvM

[J P Wagner]

I've seen a pattern develope where the Allies generally invade France on the Cherbourg peninsula...it's easy for the Axis to bottle them up and then push them back into the sea...perhaps with an alternate supply source, the Allies will vary their invasion points and not rely on ports so heavily........

[Esquire]

I agree. Mullberries would be very helpful when invading countries that have no ports. Ireland for one.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by J P Wagner:

I've seen a pattern develope where the Allies generally invade France on the Cherbourg peninsula...it's easy for the Axis to bottle them up and then push them back into the sea...perhaps with an alternate supply source, the Allies will vary their invasion points and not rely on ports so heavily........

And so JPW, you have precisely stated the problem. Not enough ports means limited places for amphibious invasions.

Since the number of ports & cities are tied into the economic value of each Industrial State, you cannot just plunk down ports wherever you please.

If the next iteration of the game retains the present economic engine, then you are restricted as to possible solutions.

If a potential SC2 has a larger map and a different economic engine then you likely will not be faced with this particular problem.

As for the game as-is, the idea of A3R style bridge-heads, or beach-heads, as rambo has suggested, is a good one.

Additionally, you could consider a "marine unit" that could attack the shore directly from shallow seas, and then advance if the combined assault from Air and Ship bombardment clears a space. If it fails to help clear the hex, then it will rightly be stuck in landing craft as a "sitting duck."

This marine unit would be special, with appropriately higher cost, in order to serve the unique function of clearing the beach hex.

It might be assumed that a mulberry or Seabees style engineer unit would be attached, and presto! when it lands, there is your temporary bridgehead. Temporary for what -- 2-3 turns maybe?

With diminished supply capacity, so that turn 3 would provide you with less intact supply to draw from. But of course, all of this would have to be refined and approved by Hubert, IF it is even implemented in a possible SC2.

As is, invasions are problematical because of having to first clear a hex near a port. Even the relentless AI has trouble doing that unless there are 5 or more greatly experienced air units. This is not the ideal solution, since there are invadable hexes (... and especially if we see a Pacific, or whole-world version) that do not allow the massing of nearby Air Fleets.

What is always interesting -- there are countless ways to make a game better, and there are vast numbers of people dedicated to strategic gaming. We have waited a long, long, long time for a playable and reasonably historic WW2 GS game.

Tremendously lucky for us, the game designer is open to a creative dialectic, and my gradually gathering sense is that the making of SC2 will be... an amazing adventure. :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

jon_j_rambo , ". . .add the ability for a Beach Head Counter."

I - Mullberrys

The Game could use Mulberry units. In addition to the one used at Normandy, a much larger one was being constructed in the Pacific for the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

The Mulberry as used in Clash of Steel is pretty good except, as in CS, there is no stacking and it forces the occupation of several beach hexes to accomodate not only itself but also the invading units.

I find the need for a Mulberry as such to be doubtful as opposed to just designating one hes as a "Beach-head."

II - Beach-Heads

Historically, a heavy storm soon after the landins damaged the British Normandy Mulberry beyond repair.

The American Logistics units piled supplies and ordinance on the beaches; from there it was all trucked or driven to various destinations in France via the "Red Ball Express." That was done for several months till the Allies liberated Antwerp very late in 1944!

Below: Truck Drivers of the Red Ball Express --in the still segregated U. S. Army --loading supplies directly off a snow coated Normandy Beach!

The wrecked Normandy Mullberry may have been of limited use, but essentially the supplying of all the Allied troops in France was done ad hoc.

I think a Mulberry should have the highest rating and the alternative should be a less effective Beach Head -- the sort of thing that would account for the chronic fuel shortages the Allies experienced in France.

[ December 06, 2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[GDS_STARFURY]

I think there is a much simpler soultion that could even work its way into a patch for SC.

When a player researches anti-tank technology they are basicly improving their infantry units. When this level of research reaches the value of 3 all corp and army units become amphibious and can reload themselves onto transports for a slight added cost.

Say you have to spend 50 mpp to transport a normal army group. If anti-tank research has reached L3 and this unit is used in a failed landing or is on a hex like Ireland then it would cost 75 to reload the army. Of course the cost would be vaired according to the level of antoi-tank and industrial tech reached.

This amphibious rating would not affect HQ or Tank units. To reload these onto transports you would still need a harbor. This method restricts the gameyness of being able to land and reload anywere. The need for at least L3 in AT also makes this ability a non-option for early game rushes.

[JerseyJohn]

A new idea with at least two points I like, but how does it affect supplying units already ashore?

I think an easy way to solve part of the Harbor problem would be to: Allow units starting in, or on a shore hex adjacent to, a coastal city without a port to transport as though the through a port. This would give the present port cities supply and economic advantages over mere coastal cities , which would still be treated as habors for purposes of unit transport.

On this scale, virtually every coastal hex would have at least one harbor! Dunkirk, for example, served as a port for the BEF evacuation, but you won't find it on the game map. Nor, for that matter, will you find the harbors those troops were lifted to, Dover, Portsmouth, South Hampton, etc..

While I don't believe additions along these lines would make the game overly complicated, I'm sure the usual "keep it simple" faction, with their acute sensitivity to all things involved and serpentine, will express numerous objections. Hopefully, while debating these issues, we'll treat these people with courtesy and respect exactly as we would if their arguments made any sense.

[ December 06, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[pzgndr]

One interesting aspect of 3R lacking in SC (and COS also?) is the requirement to designate a fleet to actually carry supply, and having additional fleets and air units available to protect the supply path.

HQs already provide partial supply, implying some use of harbors either real or artificial. One idea may be to permit HQs on coastal hexes with an adjacent supplied fleet to have their supply rating increased to 8 or 10. This avoids having to buy artificial harbors and moving them about, while still providing the abstract supply effect we seek. It seems relatively simple and effective.

Having a supplied fleet adjacent to a coastal hex could also be a requirement for evacuations. Double transport costs and double landing losses should be considered, but at least this would allow you to pull out from an otherwise bad situation if you have no port or your port is damaged.

[JerseyJohn]

Excellent ideas Bill, as usual! They have the added benefit of being within the game's basic parameters.

[ December 06, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[viper_ss]

Bill's idea is great. The HQ unit in a way already serves as a supply center and thus a beachhead.

One thing I would like to add that I saw earlier is the ability to build fortifications on any hex and thus increase a units ability to entrench. Some possible rule ideas:

1. When overrun, they are destroyed.

2. Each 1 point increase cost 100 MPPs.

3. It takes an addition turn after the fortification is built to be entrenched. You don't have the ability to build it and expect your unit to be fortified for the opponents turn.