Shaka of Carthage Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Iron Ranger Yes, I was referring to the topic you started. I think you are wrong that it wouldn't benefit anyone to explain why but thats your choice. Since I still want to know (and perhaps others do as well) and after reading your next post, I think I may have figured out what you feel the problem is. So let me try and state my deduction and you can tell me if I am right or wrong. You believe that by the time Germany starts Barbarossa, the Axis will be equal or even exceed the MPP production of the Allies. If the Allies don't reduce the German production in the next 2 to 8 turns, its basically over for the Allies. Since the Siberian Transfer gives the Allies a MPP bonus, the smart Axis player will not trigger it. Does that summarize it properly? If so, I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 My "wish list" for Version 1.08 While I haven't done it yet, Liam (?) and JerseyJohn (?) outlined some well thought out map changes and corrections to the existing map that I will add to my enhancement list. Historically Responsible (love that term, thanks JerseyJohn) SC is near perfect as a game for two balanced sides to fight each other during WWII. Thats fine for Greys' fighting the Reds'. I want Germans fighting Russians. Here are the items I feel would accomplish that. SC Enhancements This is my attempt to have the economy reflect the importance of certain minerals and oil. MPP+ System Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Shaka & Iron Great continuation and far to much for me to comment on. All the totalled views expressed throughout this thread have convinced me that correcting all these things will not be a simple matter and probably all of them can't be covered. A narrow few I'd like most would include: The map changes Shaka brought up, they would be simple and good, such as filling in that sea hex so Canada and the U. S. have a land connection. A better amphibious landing system; my views here are identical to Shakas -- including the difference between doing these things in the Atalantic as oppossed to how they were done under totally different conditions in the Pacific. Altering Carriers so they aren't comparable to air fleets and are limited to action far from coastlines where they'd be too easily sunk. Altering BBs and CAs so they haven't got a potent shore bombardment factor, let's get them out to sea as well instead of having them artificially influencing land battles. The expanded scenario editor with the ability to alter unit limits and even unit characteristics and also with the ability to open all countries and alter nonstarting neutrals. Long Range effectiveness reductions. FoW on for Human and off for the AI. Doing this on the run, will possibly add something else when I go back online tonight. Thanks for all the responses; enjoyed them throughout. [ August 23, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Here are the 12 changes I would most like to see (from easy to hard); Easy 1. Improved FOW </font>1.1 FOW OFF for AI, On for Human</font>1.2 Siberian Transfer Hidden</font>1.3 Air Fleets have a 50% to spot subs.</font> 2.0 Post Surrender Partisans for Spain, Turkey (& Russia ) 3.0 North Sea Transit Hex from NW of Norway to Northern Russia and NW of Norway to North Atlantic </font>3.1 German Ships go to North Atlantic if Norway Neutral/German Controlled</font>3.2 Allied Transports go to Northern Russia if Norway Neutral/Allied Controlled</font> 4.0 Allied Forces can operate between the US and Canada 5.0 More Techs </font>5.1 Partisan Support - Increases chance of post surrender partisans in Yugo, Spain, Turkey, Norway, Russia, Iraq</font>5.2 Submarine Production (reduce cost of subs by 10% per tech level)</font>5.3 Intel - 10% bonus per level to intercepting air fleet readiness due to advance warning of incoming attacks, 1% per tech level to reveal location of enemy unit for 1 turn.</font>5.4 Counter Intel - Reduces effect of enemy Intel and Partisan Support</font>5.5 Bomber Production (reduce cost of bombers by 10% per tech level)</font>5.6 Mining Technology (increases production of resource hexes by 20% per tech level)</font>5.7 Mercant Marine (increases value of merchant ship convoy routes by 20% per level)</font>5.8 Fighter Production (decrease cost of Air Fleets by 5% per level)</font>Medium 6.0 Varied Opening Game Strategies/ Unit Locations for Allied, Axis, Neutral powers </font>6.1 German North Atlantic Subs have a 20% to start 20 hexes south of their current location.</font>6.2 If UK transports off coast of Rome then Italian corps from Venice has 20% to appear next to Rome.</font> 7.0 Random Events (1% per turn - about once per game) </font>7.1 Example: British Spy Discovers Location of (1 to 4) German Subs</font>7.2 Example: German Spy kills key British Scientist. (UK Loses 1 Random Tech chit)</font>7.3 Example: US Cruiser arrives in Atlantic from the Pacific Fleet. (US gains 1 Cruiser)</font>7.4 Example: Arabs revolt against foreign occupiers in Iraq (Militia Unit appears in Mountains/Desert of Iraq</font>7.5 Storm in the Atlantic. (Military Transport Damaged)</font>7.6 Norwegian Guerrillas attack mines. (3 Str Norwegian Militia Unit appears in Norway)</font>7.7 German Industry Reaches new levels of Productivity (Bonus 10MPP this turn)</font> Hard 8. German AI Invasion of Nordic Countries 9. German AI Sea Lion 10. Variable Defense of France AI Strategy 11. Allied AI Liberation of Nordic Countries 12. Italian AI Breakout to the Atlantic Strategy [ August 25, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Edwin P Good point about that North Sea transit hex. Forgot all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Shaka Thanks Question: Would an interception only Air Fleet Unit add to the game? Would it be a correct historical representation? Interception AirFleet - Can only Intercept Enemy Air Attacks, Cost 300, Range 2 or 3 Hexes. - Radar Tech improves Readiness of these Interception Air Fleets by 10% per level. - Jets Tech Improves Strength. - Long Range does not increase the range of Interception Air Fleets. [ August 23, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Edwin P To answer your question about an "interception" air unit only, no. If you are gonna have units that perform a specific mission, then what you are really after is a seperation of the Air unit into a Fighter and a Attack (ie Fighter/Bomber, Dive Bomber, Tank Destroyer, etc) aircraft unit. Then your Fighters can assign missions to those units. But once you start doing this, you realize that its alot more work and you haven't really gained much over the way SC handles it. What most people don't like about the way SC handles the Air (or HQ also), is that you don't have any control over what they do. There are some times you don't want the air to intercept, but you don't have the choice. Personally, at this level, I like the way SC does it, since trying to control the type of mission each unit takes (or what HQ its assigned to) is too low level for the people we players are suppossed to be representing. But thats personal preference. But the one thing thats kinda related, is when you reach Jets (tech level 4), your range should be reduced (around strike range of 3). That would reflect the short range of the early Jets. Long Range should be reset to zero (0) as well, since Long Range development on propeller aircraft had nothing to do with Jets. This would make people seriously consider if they want Jets, since they have just lost any range advantage they may have had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Great ideas, an Editor is asking for a bit much I think. If Hubert had the time to create that he'd likely create an SC2. Though it would be a nice additive. I like the ideas about phazing back air, and constricting their rules to more traditional realistic options. Instead of a UberUnit that controls all. Also linking together technology, and making use of some the things already in incorporated in the game with some refinements. Anti-Air for instance<should reflect more than just resource protection, those flak guns were the same that were with the armies>, Radar allowing for bonuses in interception, making Subs more a pain in the butt a strategic resource killer<historically though it's uncertian what effects strategic bombing had on German Industry. It's confirmed that subs delivered a death blow to the British economy> On and on... Though the basics at least! I think another HUGE issue is to increase tank tech to compare with AT tech, thus making it possible to crush corp lines without purely Jets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 24, 2003 Author Share Posted August 24, 2003 Shaka "Historically Responsible (love that term, thanks JerseyJohn)" At a get-together today I happened to say I regarded William L. Shirer as an historically responsible historian, though not an academic. The fellow I said it to is a professor of Modern History. I short while later he asked where I'd heard that term and I told him myself and a fellow known as Shaka of Carthage had been tossing it around for some time on a website. He smiled and said, "Well, I hope neither of you mind if I start using it myself. I'll gladly acknowledge it's origin." So, it appears our little term may end up in the lexicon and might even end up immortalizing us! [ August 23, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 JerseyJohn As long as I get paid for every use of the term, not a problem. Liam You are so right about the flak weapons. Just that one change, having the Radar Tech increase the Air Defense value of units, would be a easy and viable solution to Air being so powerful. Because now there would be an air counter, and no software code changing wheter it kills a unit or not would have to be done. [ August 23, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Iron Ranger One more thing about your Siberian Transfer House Rule. Why don't you just use the "Siberians already transferred?" option in the campaign editor? Would you still get the same couple of thousand MPPs in units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 As originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: But the one thing thats kinda related, is when you reach Jets (tech level 4), your range should be reduced (around strike range of 3). That would reflect the short range of the early Jets. Long Range should be reset to zero (0) as well, since Long Range development on propeller aircraft had nothing to do with Jets. This would make people seriously consider if they want Jets, since they have just lost any range advantage they may have had. WOW! This idea is new to me... don't believe I've ever seen it posted before. It is one (... of several) really great solution to the "too-too powerful" Air Fleets dilemma. :cool: A player would have to seriously consider pulling all chits out of Air research, once L3 has been reached, else they would lose their advantage, AND it would allow the laggards to catch up and recover... to the extent that the middle to end game would more closely resemble actual historical incident... with the Axis having the early advantage, and the Allies eventually turning the corner and achieving parity (except for the variability in experience). Or, they could keep the increased striking power at the expense of better range, as suggested. And, it would keep Air Power within the bounds of reasonably expected results. No longer would those L4-5 AFs inflict massively excessive damages! But, it wouldn't allow Jets AND Prop planes to co-exist... UNLESS, you could continue to build L3 Air even though L4-5 Jets had been attained? Perhaps the unit purchase table could... somehow SPLIT at that point... and not until that point...into 2 separate categories, Jets and Props? And, the Long Range would differentially apply to each of the 2 categories? Well, no doubt we will have a somewhat modified Tech Table in SC2, and hopefully a much more comprehensive one (... perhaps even 3 separate categories... Fighters and Tactical Bombers and Jets), but this idea would go a long way toward solving the Air problem... here and now. :cool: I wonder... could it be done easily and without undue coding difficulties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 I'll test that idea Shaka, but I think what you would see then is NO siberian transfer in that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 24, 2003 Author Share Posted August 24, 2003 Jets and prop aircraft would definitely have to coexist. Prop fighter planes and fighter bombers and bombers were still in wide use during the early fifties! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Liam I like your concept of having radar give a bonus to air fleet interception. Perhaps a 10% or 5% readiness bonus to interception per radar tech level. This would reflect the fact that defending air units would know that an attack is coming and from what direction. Higher radar tech would reflect a greater range and more warning time with which to prepare. It would not unbalance the game as it would affect only intercepting air fleets and would require players to balance investments in radar vs Jets. So Interception Readiness = (Readiness)+(0.10* Radar Tech Level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts