AAR Terif/Curry testing new bid system.

[Terif]

Sorry Blashy, but SC is not about air - you can´t neglect your air, but neither can you neglect your ground forces.

You need a certain amount of AFs that´s true - (the same applies for ground units ), but if you buy too much you will certainly loose against an equal opponent who follows a more balanced approach. This wrong believe that air is everything is one of the main reasons people loose their games .

Air is simply (mpp-)ineffective against ground units if you want to kill them only with air.

And playing without tech:

In this case Allies (not Russia, but western Allies)have a huge disadvantage. Axis don´t need tech and can easily play without, but Allies do need it:

1. to make their main weapon the carriers effective - they are inferior in mpps, but they have the better weapons later in the war: ships and carriers, but only with tech.

2. to be able to kill enemy airfleets (they need at least lv2-3 jets to do so). Without tech they can only achieve a 1:1 mpp exchange, but since Axis has more mpps, Allies are lost without tech.

3. And worser: without beeing able to kill the enemy AFs in France, they simply can not make a successful D-day. Their advantage in 1942/43 in France is, that they have geographical the better positon and their carriers can now fight against AFs - so they can take enemy air into crossfire and kill them - but only when they reached Jets lv 2-3+ and if possible longrange lv 1.

Summary:

Play without tech and Allies will have a huge problem.

[Blashy]

Well I've played a few games (4-5) with no tech and I found Allies had a better go at it, because when D-Day came around, the air fleets were not as costly so you have more than usual and you have more ground units because of the extra mpps.

And the soviets don't have to go and permanently hide their 3 AFs for most of the Axis invasion.

I'll stand that AF are 80% of the time the turning point in matches, every AAR I read ends up with "can't keep up with his better air tech, being wiped clean, game over" something along those lines.

Anyways, no tech matches I find helps the allies since they are on equal footing, 4 bar no tech carriers in a no tech game still pack a hell of a punch.

[Terif]

Yes, loosing all airfleets is usually a turning point in every war - the same would be true if you loose most of your ground units - or simply have a look at how many mpps you loose with your air .

As said, you need a certain amount of air to make breakthroughs and to support an offensive. If axis foolishely battle against superior enemy air (especially in France..) and looses their airfleets, then they have lost at this front. When the enemy has achieved air superiority at both fronts game is usually over.

And especially when a player invested most of his mpps in air, game is over for him when he looses them. A player with a more balanced approach still has his ground forces and besides, he usually will not send his air into hopeless battles like the ´air only´ players usually tend to in order to keep air superiority at all costs . The problem of an ´air only´player is, he has to keep air superiority at both fronts or he will be steamrolled by the enemy ground forces since he has not enough own units for defence. But to be superior at both fronts is usually not possible between equal players .

Concerning tech:

Yes, if the axis player doesn´t know how to use this no tech situation and how to react, there is no problem. But Germany simply has to place 5 AFs + HQ in France and game is over for Allies since they will not be able to kill the german air and can not land with transports. In contrary, Germany has no problems removing the UK mpps by forcing intercepts - since they don´t have to fear to loose their AFs in a counterattack.

BTW: carriers start without experience and can only collect experience at Ireland and when the enemy allows it. So since they can not train in France they will never reach 4 stars - 1-2 stars are more likely. So since they have not much experience (and no tech) they can not kill enemy airfleets, and since western Allies can´t kill the enemy air they can´t achieve air superiority and their carriers can´t collect experience...

[ August 15, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Curry]

Back to the game. Trying to shake off the Hurricane Charley blues here and get back to gaming. The USSR should join next move and I can see how bad the German attack will be.

[Terif]

December 14, 1941:

Barbarossa starts....

- Portugal surrounded and bombarded

- Greece and Iraq surrender

- all 9 border armies in Russia cut off or destroyed, both tanks, a cruiser and an airfleet killed, a second AF damaged.

German forces in Russia at the moment:

10 armies (AT lv 1), 8 tanks (lv 0), 7 airfleest (lv 2), 7 HQs and 8 corps/minor units.

[Liam]

Terif:

Sorry to interrupt but a Smart Ally can find Experience for his Carriers aside from Ireland. Plus with bidding, Russia is a Monster, All the West has to do is hit isolated locations sapp a few MPPs here or there. Your strategy advice is sound, but applicable against a good oponent?

[Curry]

I resign

The attack upon Russia is a monster attack. The axis has Jets 2 the allies just got jets 1 for the UK last turn. Hard to invade in the west without at least the same jets tech or better. Had 3 chits in the UK jets as early as I could and 2 in long range. All I got was 1 jets and just last move.

Not complaining that that was the problem. Terif just plain beat me bad - again.

I thought I did ok with France, I cost him two armor and a corps but he took Paris in May becuase I counter attacked. For Terif that gives him so much time. He is incredible on the cookie cutter. When I tried to slow him down in the quiet period for the allies I made some very poor choices all around and it cost me more.

He is just way beyond my abilities and I consider myself a good intermediate player. Look at my record in the league its 74-24 but against Terif that means nothing.

Good game Terif.

[Terif]

@Curry:

Yep, good game.

From mpps/turn and units, Axis has only a slight advantage (8000mpps bonus for USA + Russia evens out the ´monster attack´ ). But you are right, UK will not be able to support an invasion in the next time, so Russia will be nearly crushed when western Allies are ready to invade - and then it is most probably too late.

@Liam:

Hmm, I think it´s the other way round: a no tech game can work against an average/not so experienced axis player that gives Allies opportunities to train and who doesn´t protect France against an invasion. But a good axis player will not give the carriers a chance for training and also make a landing impossible. At least when you would play against me, you will not find a training site except Ireland .

You can hit isolated locations perhaps once or twice, but then you have to sail away or the carriers are toast (most likely they are even toast in the first attack...) - and to sail to the next isolated location will need half a year (it is usually either Norway or the Med - to switch between them needs a lot of time for ships).

Besides, since carriers without tech are ineffective against enemy air, air is cheap without jets and 1-2 air is enough for protection - since carriers without tech are not able to kill them - Axis has no problem to protect every possible location with air (if necessary even without HQ, since carriers are even then hopelessly inferior to the air).

[Blashy]

Well Terif, that is your opinion, but every no tech game I've played has proven WAY more balanced.

And those 3 carriers are not what will make the allies win on the west.

[Terif]

Blashy, it always depends on the opponent how a game developes and if a strategy/house rule will work how you want it to work. So if you play against the right opponents I am sure it will be more balanced. If it works for you, just do it .

[jon_j_rambo]

Blashy --- All you have to do...is do it! Get on the battlefield, challenge a top noche player, agree on rules, & beat some ass. Talk is cheap. If you beat top players, then you will get respect. If you open your Piehole, & can't back it...well, everybody will remain to think you're nickname represents the character chasing the Pac-Man, in my case, you're chasing the RACK-Man. HaHaHaHaHa...If you ask Terif, he'll tell you how to beat the strategy.

Right now, Camp Rambo is brewing up a couple of new moves