Gamey Strategies

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I've noticed one of the so called 'gamey' strategies is the ivasion of the us, declaring war on it only after your assault troops are right off their shores. Then when you land the troops, you get the attackers bonus for suprise. To me this is a little "wrong." Same goes when you invade sweden, the attacker shouldnt get that bonus for suprise since its probable that the defending country knew your ships were there and that you'd probably invade. Maybe this has been fixed in the gold version. If not, this issue needs to be adresses in future releases.

Baron CVM

[Von Bismarck]

Maybe you should discuss that very idea with the Poles'.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Exept the poles didnt know that the german intentions were to be a massive assault, they thought diplomatic relations would solve their problems, on the otherhand i think if the u.s saw a german ivasion fleet off the coast, i think theyd know the krauts were comin.

[ July 07, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Carl Von Mannerheim ]

[Von Bismarck]

You would think so, but then how can you say that this would have been the case, when all you have to do is look at Pearl Harbor. The thought that the U.S. could not be surprised is ludicrous.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

For the us its probably a completly different situation. Let me explain, now Youve just seen all of europe overrun And then an invasion force of that army is off your coast, youre probably gonna have at least a small incling that they may be invading. wouldnt be much of a suprise if they invaded, especially less of a suprise than a 6 carrier strike force that you dont know its location, suddenly attacks. This is why i dont feel the "buildup off the coast, declare war and then invade" Strategy, it needs to be addressed.

Baron CVM

[mmtt]

Just an addendum, in fact, Roosevelt was aware of the upcoming Japanese strike. He decided to let the carriers flee(the big targets went away) and leave the old WWI battleships at bay. The Japs went in the trap. They awake the big USA warmachine and didn't destroy the main Pacific Fleet. The rest is a job of years...

[Stalin's Organ]

Oh dear...lets PLEASE not have a "Did Roosevelt know about PH befoer it happened?" argument (it's never just a debate!!) again!!

I tend to agree - you couldn't hide teh fact of an invasion.

Landing a million or more men is something different from hiding a carrier task force in the Pacific.

The Brits could see Sealion coming, and the Swedes had plenty of intell in Germany too. The Allies never tried to conceal the fact of Husky or D-day - only the intended target.

In fact (IMO of course!! lol) they should be "uninvadable" for Germany sicne the normal commerce from Sweden was worth a lot more than invading the country - most of the output from those mines in the north went to Germany anyway!!

[Von Bismarck]

Were we aware of an impending attack? Yes we did know that the Japanese fleet had put to sea. Did Roosevelt receive cautionary intel reports regarding the unknown location or destination of that Japanese fleet? Yes I am sure that he did. Did he knowingly put at risk thousands of U.S. servicemen's lives, and jeopardize national security, by sacrificing the majority of our Pacific Fleet, all in hopes of drawing our country into a war that had hardly touched us up to that point?!? No I think not. The event shocked most of them, even the "in the know" people of the higher echelons, who might have thought it probable were not ready to concede that it was a sure thing worthy of alerting the those who would soon pay for that indecisiveness.

If the war had progressed differently then who is to say what is plausible and what is not. Were the Americans prepared for a war in 1941, no I think not. Would they have been prepared in 1945, or a later date if the, all be it implausible scenario, that Germany were to try to incvade, perhaps, but again I don't think that a surprise benefit would be unwarranted in this specific instance.

As to Sweden's surprise to an invasion by Germany in the early days of the war, by what seemed to most people as an ally of sorts, doesn't seem implausible to me one bit.

[Stalin's Organ]

VB where do you think the Germans would have found the necessary naval capability to invade Sweden from?

For Sealion they were pressing into service about 40% of the Rhine barges and almost every other ship they could carry.

do you think the Swedes might have noticed that these were massing in the Baltic for several weeks before any invasion?

Remembering of course that Swedish vessels went to every port in East Prussia virtually every day of the year. Just closing the ports would have raised suspicion.

IMO the ability to perform an amphibious landing is WAAAAAYYYYY over-rated in SC, and is one of the poorest aspects of the game.

[Von Bismarck]

In terms of the political, economic, and military positions at the time, I think that an invasion of Sweden was the last thing that Germany would think of, but when I am playing a game like this the whole idea is to create different scenarios which could change the eventual outcome of the war, not to relive it verbatim. The fact remains that if Germany invaded anyone who did not already declare war on them as part of a pact or an alliance, then WHY NOT? Why not add an element of surprise to that invasion. History supports me in my argument. Poland '39, Norway, Barbarossa. Let us not confuse Sweden with Brittain. Is it so hard to believe that Germany could have sneaked in sufficient numbers of preliminary forces as to make such a coastal landing a breeze. Should the Poles have allowed a German battleship to anchor in Danzig, knowing or not knowing that the Germans were building up to invasion up and down their border. Is it so unbelievable as to think that this could not happen to Sweden in reality, as it could happen in the game?

[Lars]

All besides the point lads, what would you propose to fix it is the real question. Keep in mind that surprise invasions were carried out in WWII. Do you really want to totally remove the option?

[Von Bismarck]

Hear, Hear! Thank you. Succinct and to the point.

[Camicie Nere]

Another surprise invasion - Operation Torch. The American invasion fleet put to sea from Newport News, Virginia and went all the way to North Africa without being detected.

[Von Bismarck]

Hey CN; while you are checking posts I have a Q? for you. I like your Mod's, but on my outdated monitor they are really too dark to appreciate, in their entirety. How would I as a novice edit the colored backgrounds of your mod sprites, and also I would like to kind of put together a hodge podge of different sprites from different authors, any idea what type of software or such things I would need to be able to do this?

[husky65]

Originally posted by mmtt:

Just an addendum, in fact, Roosevelt was aware of the upcoming Japanese strike. He decided to let the carriers flee(the big targets went away) and leave the old WWI battleships at bay. The Japs went in the trap. They awake the big USA warmachine and didn't destroy the main Pacific Fleet. The rest is a job of years...

There is no evidence at all to support this.

Its also worth noting that the USA did not have to allow a strike to be successful to get into the war, even if the strike had been massacred, the USA was still at war.

The whole rationale of the 'Roosevelt knew' argument is false - if he knew he could have had a serious CAP in place and all guns manned and ready, done serious damage to the Jap strike and still have been able to claim a dastardly sneak attack.

At the time the USN considered battleships to be the primary weapons of the fleet, if they were going to protect their big targets and leave some sacrificial ones, they'd have flown off the a/c to Hawaii and let the carriers get bombed, whilst preserving the BBs.

[Stalin's Organ]

Cough - Operation Torch was mainly a surprise because the French Nth African coast was empty!! lol

And of course it was launched from the US (mainly - there were 23000 Brit troops involved too!!) where there was no great German intelligence presence and it's assembly could easily be mistaken for "normal" troops reinforcement for the UK.

None of that applies to any theoretical German invasion of Sweden.

OK - so for those who want a "what if" scenario - sure, do it. But then the Germans should LOOSE the use of the mines in the north unless they garrison each hex - what hapens now?? Sweden gets conqquered and left empty!!

I guess this might not happen in the full game, but hey, that's not where we are right now.

And let's face it - the game isnt' all that historic anyway in regard to the neutrals. anyone remember what happened in Spain during Napoleon?

History buffs may recall that the Spanish were ALLIED with Napoleon basically until he tried to enforce a Govt on them, and then they turned into the nastiest most brutal guerilla fighters for a long time and bled the Frnech dry.

So where's the option for Spanish guerillas??

[Lars]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

So where's the option for Spanish guerillas??

I think they would have gone after the Allies too.

[Camicie Nere]

Yes, but my point about Torch had more to do with the fact that it was possible to move a large body of troops across the Atlantic, undetected by the Germans who at the time had a fair number of assets engaged in scouring the ocean for Allied shipping. It is ludicrous to suggest that the Germans lacked intel on Atlantic shipping, in that by 1942 the U-Boat campaign had been given the highest of priority by Hitler. By then, interdiction of Atlantic shipping was about the only chance they had at anything resembling a victory. So they were looking pretty damn hard and still missed the invasion fleet.

An even better example can be found in the earlier Madagascar invasion (staged from the UK). Again mounted against Vichy French territory, of course, but the critical point is that it managed to slip past a wide net of FW Kondor recon aircraft, U-Boats, radio intel, and the like.

There's your *COUGH.*

[Ancient One]

I hope that nobody is trying to say that a surprise German invasion of the US was historically possible, because then I'd call them a fool.

[Ancient One]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

IMO the ability to perform an amphibious landing is WAAAAAYYYYY over-rated in SC, and is one of the poorest aspects of the game.

I agree, and that's one of the reasons (among others such as tech imbalances and strategic bombing) why I'm not yet sure whether or not I'll buy this game.

[Stalin's Organ]

CN the Atlantic was NOT full of German U-boats and Condors!! rofl

The Atlantic is a huge place in which shipping might be anywhere, but the German recon (not intell) assets were primarily directed against known convoy routes.

Oddly enough none of the invasion convoys for Torch or Madagascar would have followed those routes, since they were going somewhere else!!

I'm not entirely sure the invasion of Madagascar was actually "launched" from Britain either - the units came from there, but there weer allied ports a lot closer from which the final armada might've set sail (not that I know this for sure mind you).

And no - I'm definitely not suggesting there might've been a "secret" invasion of the US by Germany even had the Germans conquered England (which was never a real proposition historically!!)

ciao

[husky65]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

[QB]

OK - so for those who want a "what if" scenario - sure, do it. But then the Germans should LOOSE the use of the mines in the north unless they garrison each hex - what hapens now?? Sweden gets conqquered and left empty!!

[QB]

Given the scale of the game it is quite possible to assume a reasonable strength garrison is in place - the units required to do so would not show up at this scale.

[nijis]

Off the top of my head, how about limiting invasions to one unit per power per turn, to simulate shortages of landing craft? This includes both friendly and enemy controlled hexes. Everything over that limit has to go through a port. I don't know the figures for the D-Day build-up off the top of my head, but I don't think that either it or any other post-invasion build-up went much faster than this. This could be a house rule, even if not implemented in the final version of the game.

[ July 08, 2002, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: nijis ]

[Norse]

<irony=on>

I agree, when a nation declares on someone else then no suprise bonus shall be given. Because, everybody knows what you are up to, like if Germany shuts down some harbours then Sweeden knows it is next (comon isn't that obvious??).

And espesically the US knows the invasion is coming even before Germany even begins to think of it, because the US is some kind of super-nation that is given this bonus.

<irony=off>

The US military was not prepared to go head on against any major Axis power in 1940 or 41, the US military budget at this time was only 2 billion $ (The Times historical Atlas of World War 2). In 1944, the US military budget was way over 90 billion $ and they were very ready for anything anywhere.

Germany in 1941 had enough resources to do ANYTHING she wants. The Germans had resources to launch Operation Sea Lion if they really wanted to, but they changed their mind and went after Russia instead. If the Germans wanted to make a suprise attack on the US instead then they could do that. It would cost them alot of resources, but it is not *impossible* to cross the Atlantic ocean with an invasion fleet - the US did this alot of times so my point is already proven. The Germans could hit the US if that was what they wanted to do, but I don't think they would be able to defeat US. A successful invasion, and a successful war is two entirely different things! The "stalingrad" would probably end up beeing in Washington D.C. or something. But still , it is *NOT* impossible for Germany to launch a suprise invasion on the US. Germany had more resources than US at that very point, and they had the time to prepare for it.

In 1941, Germany can do whatever she likes, but that is not saying that Germany will be successful at it in the long run. An invasion would work. But in the long run it would most likely be an Axis disaster. Just because it is the "USA" doesn't make an attack impossible. There is no holy God defending that nation more than any other. Fact is, the US military budget was 2 billion $, the German budget was way more. The German military was prepared, the US military wasn't prepared. Period.

~Norse~

[Marc]

First, the invasion doesnt have to be a total suprise to have success. Norway was caught in the midst of trying to mobilize when hit with an amphibious and airborne attack. In this game, since we dont have either paratroops to seize key features or air-landing during an invasion, perhaps sea invasions were tweaked to make up for it. It also gives a realistic reason to do such things as garrison coastal areas.

The problem with Sweden is there is no incentive NOT to invade. The economic model is simplified. As already pointed out most of the iron ore production was, and for the majority of the war, shipped to Germany. Protection of that route was one rationale for the invasion of Norway. If this game gave the Germans a set amount of points a turn from Sweden, then it might still be tempting to invade, but would give good reason why it shouldnt.

The problem with the amphib is the instanteous nature. Even the allies had to postpone what was originally envisioned as simultaneous invasions at Normandy and southern France due to a lack of lift capability.

This is a game, not a hard simulation. When you can decide, as long as you have the points, to instantly build a carrier, for example, this doesnt model the economics nor the planning inherent in the real War. As a game based on WWII I have enjoyed the beta and look forward to the finished product. But I dont kid myself that this is anything more than a terrific and fun game.

Marc