Iron Ranger Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 In the last week or two I've been looking over the 41 Senerio. It looks like a very different game with: A) USA Low readness and will not enter soon Average attack on Russia, Germany will do fine but not take out the front 9 armys and 2 armor C) Germany has a navy, Italy's is weak, UK's disperced D) UK is in great position (Torbuk, Malta, UK, Gabrater) but very weak. Three problems: Russian bug - due to the 'count' before the start of each senerio russia starts with 480 'extra' MPPs, its best from a balace issue to remove these. Axis HQs - two in North Aftrica with no port is foolish. Move the Itialian HQ next to Rome. Tech - USA and USSR gets their starting 5 but UK/Ge/It are all at 0. This would be a good area for the bid (WRONG). Instead give both UK and Germany 4 chits but a max of 2 in any one tech. Italy gets nothing Aditional Adjustment for long term balance: Disband the UK carrier at Gabralter; This should not effect the current game play but will slow down the allies in the west when it comes time to conduct operation Overlord. Bidding for sides: Use USA MPPs as the bid value. The highest bidder gets Axis but the value is added to the starting USA amount using the editor. Tech Adjustment: (optional) Air (jets) is left as is, ie no chits and be invested in this tech. Each sides stay's were its at. L1 for USA/UK/Ger - L0 for Russia/Italy Each power gets one 'free' tech incress in a historical area, pick your own or use these. UK=Sonar L2 USSR=HT L2 USA=HB L2 Italy=IT L1 Germany=Rockets L2 Mostly these are 'dispised' techs but with jets staying as is these could become important. Best Factor: The historical and staged entery of the allied power. Russia has just joined and USA is still a long way off. This is very different then the 39 senerio where USA almost always enters in the summer of 41 and Russia in the winter of 41 (note thats opposite of reality, opps Hubert ). So in this senerio you get to see a one on one - Russia vs Germany with near equal MPPS but due to the USA being out both side really have to think. "Is it worth it to attack Irland, Sweden, Iraq ect and cause a huge change in the US entery date?". If the bid is high the second USA enter you could see some real problems for the axis. ....... Anyone interested in testing this out in PBEM? [ January 02, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Just a couple of suggestions. Russian bug - Starting MPPs should be 240 to be consistent with the earlier scenarios. Or adjust this up/down for play balance. Axis HQs in North Africa - either position one HQ within range of Tripoli to improve supply or consider giving Tobruk to Axis. Historically they didn't take it until early 1942, but it's a real problem recreating history in this scenario. Giving Tobruk to Axis makes this theater more challenging. Tech - Give both UK and Germany 4 chits? You already note Germany starts with a historical Barbarossa OOB for an "average" attack. A normal game provides Germany enough additional MPPs to either buy some more units or more chits, or some combination. 6-8 chits for Germany would be more realistic given the starting OOB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Bill Presumably this discussion is centered upon Hubert's Barbarossa game scenario. Steve C. and myself played your 1941 Mod some time back and found it to be very well balanced. It followed the historical lines very closely till Leningrad fell. I had the Allies and once the Axis broke through in the Baltic it caused a gradual domino effect. Without a severe winter to hinder them the German offensive continued without let up, capturing Moscow during the winter of '42-43. After that the Soviets were doomed. More than any other scenario this one demonstrated the need for a Russian Winter, but the scenario itself was very enjoyable. I'd recommend downloading it from Otto's to anyone interested in that specific part of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 1941 is very difficult to balance, axis are doomed, dont be shy to be unhistorical: Tobruk and Sweden could go to Germany. 1942: is much more easy to get a balance in this scenario, i think that if u have played it a lot of times, Iron, u could forsee what to do to make it more balanced. Also theres a tourney with this scenario, i hope u guys would find out the flaws and use the editor to make a REAL alternative to the 1939 campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 1942: is much more easy to get a balance in this scenario, i think that if u have played it a lot of times, Iron, u could forsee what to do to make it more balanced. Also theres a tourney with this scenario, i hope u guys would find out the flaws and use the editor to make a REAL alternative to the 1939 campaign. I'm in the tourney and crushing everyone in sight, both as axis and allies. I finish a mirror game with Rambo as allies and won and I feel I'm just broke his back in the east and west as axis. So I feel this senerio is already balanced (or close enough not to mess with it yet). But your right, through this tourney we might see a large flaw and fix it/adjust for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Tech - Give both UK and Germany 4 chits? You already note Germany starts with a historical Barbarossa OOB for an "average" attack. A normal game provides Germany enough additional MPPs to either buy some more units or more chits, or some combination. 6-8 chits for Germany would be more realistic given the starting OOB. I went with four chits for Ge and UK 1) UK weak military and the average attack on Russia show's that both sides were fighting heavily and not investing so much in tech. Experence in past games has born this out, when UK has the opertiunity to fight it out with Germany the first effect is a lower chit count when attacking Russia 2) Eight chits might quicky create some super units and I wanted to keep them as a moderate level at the start. I'll need to take a look at the senerio at the HQ. But my idea here is to keep the number of 'adjustments' to a min [ December 23, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 1941 is very difficult to balance, axis are doomed, dont be shy to be unhistorical: Tobruk and Sweden could go to Germany. Yea, germany is looking bad unless you can turn it around fast (and that can be quite fun, a real test of your skill where you have a chance vs the 44 senerio where Germany has NO chance). At first I listed this as 'slightly allied', you'll note I changed it to 'moderate allied' a few days later. Sweden: This makes the most sense, both from a historical and balance issue. Sweden was 'assisting' germany so much you could just as well consider them 'gray'. What else was she going to do after all, look at the map :cool: . The problem come's in with the lack of a Russian winter noted by JJ, with those extra MMPs and the Historical USA entery date the Red army is screwed. Better to let the germany player make the call (?) DOW and USA enters soon and you lose the use of 2armys 1corp 2air for 2-4 rounds. Or wait till after USA enters and lose all that extra MPPs and units gaurding Norway. A tough call. (I would like to see a game played both ways and the result -it would be interesting) If you give Axis Torbruk UK in egypt is screwed. They are weak at home facing a near equal navy, only when USA enters will they have the time/units to better support egypt. A better solution might be to disband the Carrier at Gabralter. This would not effect the balance of power now but will decress the allies hitting power later on, a good all around solution with the ones listed above? All in all some good idea and statements guys - thanks - I'll look over the HQ web site - [ December 24, 2003, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Iron Great analysis of the situation. The MPP balancing involving Sweden and the USA in relation to the game realities of not having a real Russian Winter, then throwing North Africa and the Middle East into the mix combines for a very interesting situation. I've experimented with different ideas over the months, such as coloring some neutral US cities red to help the USSR, but none of these things have solved all the problems. The problem is any given solution for the underdog shifts the balance a bit too far in the opposite dirction! I'm sure a good solution will be found before too long now that there's interest in the topic. Condore Agreed on both opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Sweden is key for axis, they need that increment in MMPs, when supply reachs 8 in the scandinavian countries. I think this is needed from the start. It requires too many troops to set an invasion and with russia already activated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 I've got 2 games of 1941 on the go, and in both the Axis have conquered Sweden. In the one where I'm Axis I used my Italians to do it. However, we balanced the scenario a bit by bidding, giving Axis the extra MPP for a change (on a 1:4 ratio - every 1 to Italy = 4 to Germany). In both games the bid was the same, with an extra 75 for Italy and 300 to Germany. The first one I'm playing is nearly over and it has been (and still is!) very tough. We only have 4-5 turns to go and the Axis hold most of Germany, Italy, the Balkans, and Odessa and Kiev in Russia (the latter possibly only temporarily as I've just retaken it). We had a situation for a while where Torino changed hands about 7 times in 8 turns, such a tough fight which I've never seen before in this game (and I still hold it ). I think that the alternative of reducing the USSR's MPPs has the same effect, and I'm glad that people are starting to play scenarios other than the 1939 one more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted December 25, 2003 Author Share Posted December 25, 2003 Thanks for the feed back Bill. I'm in a game as allies and Russia is getting crushed (-480 at start) - I'm not sure but this game is far from a pro-alied game. Axis will have plenty of time to take Sweden before USA enters and still controls when the Siberain troops enter the game. With only a few minor tweaks this senerio could be very balanced. Please keep us updated on your games and your anaylsis on balancing afterword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted December 27, 2003 Author Share Posted December 27, 2003 Bug/problem: The southern Fortress hex (Slavespool) starts at str 5 instead of str 10. This means USSR gets 5 fewer MPPs and the defence of the southern mine hexs is alot harder as you have a low level of supply when you retreat units in this direction. Decress amount of MPPs removed to 400 vs the present 480 as a slight adjustment due to this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 Optional adjustment for playability. Level of Jet tech stays as is, no chits invested for the entire game. Each side gets to pick one tech (historical) advance for each power. Both side need to aggree on the advance :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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