Kurt88's Forum on Unified Economic and Diplomatic Functions

[Edwin P.]

2 Concepts 1> is having there be 4 degrees of Neutrality and 2> Have DPs provide other benefits

1> Four Degrees of Neutrality

1. True Neutral

2. Axis Leaning / Allied Neutral - Provides FOW information to the favored side

3. Pro Axis/Pro Allied - Provides FOW information and supply line access to military units.

4. Heavily Pro Axis/Heavily Pro Allied - Provides transit rights to Military Units, FOW information, and supplies but no MPP production.

Thus allocation of Axis DPs could reduce or increase a neutral's degree of neutrality and increases the importance of allocating DPPs.

1> DPs Bonus

Another concept would be to allow the neutral to provide FOW information to any country that assigns a DP to that country. This reflects the intelligence provided by diplomatic efforts in a country.

Thus UK could learn the location of some German units by spending DPs on the Axis Minor Powers or Vichy France. Germany might be able to spot UK naval units by spending a DP on Norway or Spain.

[Edwin P.]

2 Concepts 1> is having there be 4 degrees of Neutrality and 2> Have DPs provide other benefits

1> Four Degrees of Neutrality

1. True Neutral

2. Axis Leaning / Allied Neutral - Provides FOW information to the favored side

3. Pro Axis/Pro Allied - Provides FOW information and supply line access to military units.

4. Heavily Pro Axis/Heavily Pro Allied - Provides transit rights to Military Units, FOW information, and supplies but no MPP production.

Thus allocation of Axis DPs could reduce or increase a neutral's degree of neutrality and increases the importance of allocating DPPs.

1> DPs Bonus

Another concept would be to allow the neutral to provide FOW information to any country that assigns a DP to that country. This reflects the intelligence provided by diplomatic efforts in a country.

Thus UK could learn the location of some German units by spending DPs on the Axis Minor Powers or Vichy France. Germany might be able to spot UK naval units by spending a DP on Norway or Spain.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin P.

Good points.

We started out in a previous thread with different degrees of neutrality and wound up deciding nobody was truly neutral! Even if a country was politically unbiased it still had to lean one way or the other economically.

Still, your take on it is a good one.

We discussed giving FOW advantages, for example at Gibraltar and Suez and Alexandria and I'm glad you've reinforced the idea.

Moving units along neutral's borders will be hard to avoid due to the game scale. Italy, for example, seems to often be triggered by routine allied sea movements along her coastline; yet, without that the country is ripe for ridiculous and unrealistic gambits.

It's a much more complex subject than it first appears.

I believe this is one of the areas Hubert will most likely make some changes in.

[ March 21, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin P.

Good points.

We started out in a previous thread with different degrees of neutrality and wound up deciding nobody was truly neutral! Even if a country was politically unbiased it still had to lean one way or the other economically.

Still, your take on it is a good one.

We discussed giving FOW advantages, for example at Gibraltar and Suez and Alexandria and I'm glad you've reinforced the idea.

Moving units along neutral's borders will be hard to avoid due to the game scale. Italy, for example, seems to often be triggered by routine allied sea movements along her coastline; yet, without that the country is ripe for ridiculous and unrealistic gambits.

It's a much more complex subject than it first appears.

I believe this is one of the areas Hubert will most likely make some changes in.

[ March 21, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[disorder]

edwin- good input.

so jerseyjohn

i saw a mention of US and germany being excluded from being swayed by influence.and ussr starting out leaning toward the nazis.

could a non-historical "alliance" actually happen with neutrals and majors if time and effort were involved?or would the ai not allow it?

[disorder]

edwin- good input.

so jerseyjohn

i saw a mention of US and germany being excluded from being swayed by influence.and ussr starting out leaning toward the nazis.

could a non-historical "alliance" actually happen with neutrals and majors if time and effort were involved?or would the ai not allow it?

[JerseyJohn]

disorder

The AI in this game, as regards which way the neutrals go, seems pretty set. About the worst thing that happens is proaxis neutrals remain neutral if Germany invades Spain. There also seems to be a similar reaction to a premature invasion of either Vichy or Yugoslavia, but I'm not entirely certain of that.

As a rule of thumb, I'd have to say that Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria should always join the Axis around their historical dates. The only way I could see that not happening is if Germany were being butchered in France, never captured Paris, something along those lines. Otherwise I think they'd all have lined up with Germany, if for no other reason than protection against the USSR.

[ March 21, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

disorder

The AI in this game, as regards which way the neutrals go, seems pretty set. About the worst thing that happens is proaxis neutrals remain neutral if Germany invades Spain. There also seems to be a similar reaction to a premature invasion of either Vichy or Yugoslavia, but I'm not entirely certain of that.

As a rule of thumb, I'd have to say that Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria should always join the Axis around their historical dates. The only way I could see that not happening is if Germany were being butchered in France, never captured Paris, something along those lines. Otherwise I think they'd all have lined up with Germany, if for no other reason than protection against the USSR.

[ March 21, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Re: Moving Units along a neutral's borders and DPs affecting Neutrality

1. I think that there should be a difference between ending a turn with naval ship off a neutral's coast and a military trasport. Having a naval ship off the coast or moving it through coastal waters should not affect the readiness level of Italy. Having a tansport waiting offshore should trigger activation (and I would give Italy 12 MPs to allow them to operate 1 corps any where in Ital when they enter the war)

2. I also think that having 1 or 2 units next to Spain or Sweden's border should not have an effect, but having more units should.

Futhermore, maybe diplomatic points previously allocated should influence the neutral's reaction to this movement.

Example: If UK did not allocate any DP points to Sweden and Germany did and Germany moved 3 units to its borders there would be a % chance that Sweden capitulates to the threat of force. Of course, if Germany threatens and Sweden does not capitulate then Swedish units should start with entrenchment level 1.

Another option is to amplify the use of DPs by allowing the Player to Contact each neutral allocated a DP to make demands. Of course each demand made uses up 1 DP point and the results are not guaranteed. Thus each side can only make a limited number of demands.

Example:

Germany Contacts Sweden and Demands either 1> More Ore, 2> Capitulation or 3> Expulsion of Allied Diplomats (ending allied FOW info). The result would be a random % depending on Axis DP allocated (+ %), Allied DP allocated to Sweden (- %) and the strength of Axis troops on border (+ %) and whether Axis is at war with Russia (- %) and at war with US (- %).

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn

Re: Moving Units along a neutral's borders and DPs affecting Neutrality

1. I think that there should be a difference between ending a turn with naval ship off a neutral's coast and a military trasport. Having a naval ship off the coast or moving it through coastal waters should not affect the readiness level of Italy. Having a tansport waiting offshore should trigger activation (and I would give Italy 12 MPs to allow them to operate 1 corps any where in Ital when they enter the war)

2. I also think that having 1 or 2 units next to Spain or Sweden's border should not have an effect, but having more units should.

Futhermore, maybe diplomatic points previously allocated should influence the neutral's reaction to this movement.

Example: If UK did not allocate any DP points to Sweden and Germany did and Germany moved 3 units to its borders there would be a % chance that Sweden capitulates to the threat of force. Of course, if Germany threatens and Sweden does not capitulate then Swedish units should start with entrenchment level 1.

Another option is to amplify the use of DPs by allowing the Player to Contact each neutral allocated a DP to make demands. Of course each demand made uses up 1 DP point and the results are not guaranteed. Thus each side can only make a limited number of demands.

Example:

Germany Contacts Sweden and Demands either 1> More Ore, 2> Capitulation or 3> Expulsion of Allied Diplomats (ending allied FOW info). The result would be a random % depending on Axis DP allocated (+ %), Allied DP allocated to Sweden (- %) and the strength of Axis troops on border (+ %) and whether Axis is at war with Russia (- %) and at war with US (- %).

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin P.

Yes, I'd definietly go for those ideas.

As for distinguishing between unit types etc. stopping along neutral borders, all very subjective calls to expect the AI to make. As you say, some sort of communication with neutrals to clear these things in advance would be a welcome addition.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin P.

Yes, I'd definietly go for those ideas.

As for distinguishing between unit types etc. stopping along neutral borders, all very subjective calls to expect the AI to make. As you say, some sort of communication with neutrals to clear these things in advance would be a welcome addition.

[Edwin P.]

Implementation Notes on Diplomatic Requests

Diplomatic Menu with Picture of Each Country where DP points have been allocated (ie War Map)

Select Country

Then Pop Up Menu

What should Germany demand of Sweden (select 1 option)

1. Increased Shipments of Iron Ore (Axis MPP bonus)

2. Expel Allied Spies (Ends Allied FOW support)

3. Capitulation (Joins Axis)

What should the Allies ask of Spain (select 1 option)

1. Join embargo against Axis (reduces MPP to Axis)

2. Expel Axis Spies (ending Axis FOW support)

3. Allow our forces transit and basing rights (Gibraltor increased to a 10point port and Allied units can freely enter Spain.)

Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea?

[Edwin P.]

Implementation Notes on Diplomatic Requests

Diplomatic Menu with Picture of Each Country where DP points have been allocated (ie War Map)

Select Country

Then Pop Up Menu

What should Germany demand of Sweden (select 1 option)

1. Increased Shipments of Iron Ore (Axis MPP bonus)

2. Expel Allied Spies (Ends Allied FOW support)

3. Capitulation (Joins Axis)

What should the Allies ask of Spain (select 1 option)

1. Join embargo against Axis (reduces MPP to Axis)

2. Expel Axis Spies (ending Axis FOW support)

3. Allow our forces transit and basing rights (Gibraltor increased to a 10point port and Allied units can freely enter Spain.)

Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea?

[JerseyJohn]

Excellent.

And of course, if the neutral refuses one side's requests/demands, it should move a bit toward the opposite camp.

I hope Hubert provides some feedback here; this is material he should definitely consider.

[ March 21, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Excellent.

And of course, if the neutral refuses one side's requests/demands, it should move a bit toward the opposite camp.

I hope Hubert provides some feedback here; this is material he should definitely consider.

[ March 21, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

I agree. Losing a request should negatively affect a neutrals stance.

Also, why not have neutrals make requests of Allies/Axis players;

Example: US asks Germany to stop attacks on merchant ship convoys to UK.

Yes - Germany will not attack your merchant ships (-5% US readiness level,if germany breaks agreement and attacks then US readiness increases by 10%).

No - Your ships are entering a war zone. (US readiness increases normally)

Example: Japan attacks Pearl Harbor

Should Germany Join our Axis brothers and Declare War on the US.

Yes - Germany Declares War on the US (US prepares for War, Japan threatens Siberia and Soviet Units available for siberian transfer may be reduced by random factor)

No - Germany will not attack the US at this time (US readiness increases normally and Soviet Siberian forces transfer to Urals sooner as Japan concentrates on Fighting the USA and does not threaten Siberian Russia)

[Edwin P.]

I agree. Losing a request should negatively affect a neutrals stance.

Also, why not have neutrals make requests of Allies/Axis players;

Example: US asks Germany to stop attacks on merchant ship convoys to UK.

Yes - Germany will not attack your merchant ships (-5% US readiness level,if germany breaks agreement and attacks then US readiness increases by 10%).

No - Your ships are entering a war zone. (US readiness increases normally)

Example: Japan attacks Pearl Harbor

Should Germany Join our Axis brothers and Declare War on the US.

Yes - Germany Declares War on the US (US prepares for War, Japan threatens Siberia and Soviet Units available for siberian transfer may be reduced by random factor)

No - Germany will not attack the US at this time (US readiness increases normally and Soviet Siberian forces transfer to Urals sooner as Japan concentrates on Fighting the USA and does not threaten Siberian Russia)

[JerseyJohn]

Sounds good.

There's a famous piece of film footage where, after occupying Slovakia, FDR sent Hitler a telegram asking if he had designs on a number of neutrals and Hitler read it as a comical sing-song to the Reichstag. After that, there wasn't much direct communication between the US and nazi Germany.

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor FDR called his cabinet together to try and figure out what to do about Germany -- they felt they were in the right war but against the wrong enemy! -- and could figure nothing out. It was then that word arrived of the German and Italian declarations of war. Averill Hariman said it came as a great relief.

It's difficult to figure what sort of incentive Germany could have in declaring war against the U. S.. Personally I don't think either the U. S. or USSR would have gone to war against Germany untill well into 1943, if at all.

Perhaps a solution is to make the U-boat war more attractive to Germany and have the US war readiness depend upon the amount of sinkings Germany racks up. The way it is now, a gradual build up of animosity over neutral country invasions doesn't ring true; if Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium and France didn't do it then it was a lost cause. And it was, Americans did not want to go fight in Europe, period!

But getting back to your original point, I agree, a two way communication with perhaps a randomizing (not much and perhaps optional) element would be a fun and more realistic enhancement.

[ March 21, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Sounds good.

There's a famous piece of film footage where, after occupying Slovakia, FDR sent Hitler a telegram asking if he had designs on a number of neutrals and Hitler read it as a comical sing-song to the Reichstag. After that, there wasn't much direct communication between the US and nazi Germany.

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor FDR called his cabinet together to try and figure out what to do about Germany -- they felt they were in the right war but against the wrong enemy! -- and could figure nothing out. It was then that word arrived of the German and Italian declarations of war. Averill Hariman said it came as a great relief.

It's difficult to figure what sort of incentive Germany could have in declaring war against the U. S.. Personally I don't think either the U. S. or USSR would have gone to war against Germany untill well into 1943, if at all.

Perhaps a solution is to make the U-boat war more attractive to Germany and have the US war readiness depend upon the amount of sinkings Germany racks up. The way it is now, a gradual build up of animosity over neutral country invasions doesn't ring true; if Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium and France didn't do it then it was a lost cause. And it was, Americans did not want to go fight in Europe, period!

But getting back to your original point, I agree, a two way communication with perhaps a randomizing (not much and perhaps optional) element would be a fun and more realistic enhancement.

[ March 21, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

"Perhaps a solution is to make the U-boat war more attractive to Germany and have the US war readiness depend upon the amount of sinkings Germany racks up." JerseyJohn

Excellent Idea

[Edwin P.]

"Perhaps a solution is to make the U-boat war more attractive to Germany and have the US war readiness depend upon the amount of sinkings Germany racks up." JerseyJohn

Excellent Idea

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks, I think the topic is shaping up into solid, plausible ideas.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks, I think the topic is shaping up into solid, plausible ideas.

[Edwin P.]

RE: Diplomatic Options for Turkey

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"DPs from both sides should be put toward the U. S., the USSR, Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey ...... I think Yugosavia, Greece and Turkey should be the only countries that might enter in either direction.....

Of the countries that can be swayed, Low Countries, Turkey, Portugal and Sweden ought to be the most difficult" JerseyJohn

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Re: Turkey - Diplomatic Option Ideas:

Pop-up Window

What should Germany Ask of the Turks

1> Expel the Allied Spies (Allies lose FOW intelligence in areas bordering Turkey) - Base 50%

2> Passage Through the Straits (Axis Fleets and Transports can move through the Straits) - Base 25%

3> Supply our troops in the Middle East (Axis troops can trace supply line through Turkey and be repaired in Turkey) - Base 15%

4> Join the Axis - Base 0%

5> Revoke the Allies Passage Rights (option only appears if Allies have passage rights).

What should the Allies Demand of the Turks

1> Expel the German Spies - Base 50%

2> Passage Through the Straits (allow allies to send transports through the straits)- Base 25%

3> Join the Allies - Base 0%

4> Supply our troops (Allied units can trace a supply line to Capital of Turkey and be repaired in Turkey.)- Base 15%

5> Deny the Axis Passage Through the Straits (Only Appears if Axis has Passage Rights).

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Sample Adjustments to Base %:

Each DP Point Adds +10% to Base % of Acceptance and Opposing Points Cancel Each one out.

If Axis Asks After France Falls +5%

If Axis Asks After Occupies London +20%

If Axis Asks After Attacking Spain or Vichy or Neutral Minor Axis Country -20%

If Axis Asks After Egypt Falls +10% (you back a winner)

If Axis Asks After Conquering Iraq +10%

If Axis Asks before war with Russia +10%

If Axis Asks While Allied unit occupies a German City -50%

If Axis Asks While Allies occupy Italian city -25%.

If Greece has joined Axis - 10%

Failure Gives +5% Bonus to Allied Base %(?) or switches one level the other way.

If Allies Ask Before France Falls +5%

If Allies Ask After US Enters War +5%

If Allies Ask After Allied Unit Occupies German City +10%

If Allies Ask After Allied Unit Liberates France +10%

If Allies Ask After Italy Falls +20%

Failure Gives +5% Bonus to Axis Base %(?)or adjusts neutrality 1 level in Axis Favor.

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Just a few more ideas for playtesting.