game balance

[jfstup]

it seems that if the ussr were given 2 or 3 headquarters at the beginning of their setup, they would have a better chance of holding out as they can hardly ever afford to buy them. maybe 2 poor ones close to the front and one good one far in the rear(zhukov). and i don't believe this touch would be to far out of line with history.

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by jfstup:

it seems that if the ussr were given 2 or 3 headquarters at the beginning of their setup, they would have a better chance of holding out as they can hardly ever afford to buy them. maybe 2 poor ones close to the front and one good one far in the rear(zhukov). and i don't believe this touch would be to far out of line with history.

Mod it and i'll help u test it.

[jfstup]

i'm referring to 1939 scenerio which the editor doesn't allow you to add units to nations that start the campaign neutral.

[JayJay_H]

It wouldnt be too far out of line with history? One can have different views on that. Note that the red armies' officer corpse was badly mauled due to stalinistic cleansing actions.

[GumbyDude]

i'm referring to 1939 scenerio which the editor doesn't allow you to add units to nations that start the campaign neutral.

I've noticed that about the editor too. What you could do is add the 450 or so MPPs to their starting total per HQ you want to add. Danger of that is, the player may choose to use the 900+ points to build 9 corps instead of 2 HQs (which may actually be a good thing for the Germans)

[Augustus]

Howdy:

In my humble view, no Soviet HQ should be available at start of eastern front. They were effectively eliminated in the 30's, as already pointed out in this discussion.

However, if anything is added, it should be a +1 for soviet armour, reflecting soviet armoured supremecy (maybe not in tactics, but surely in actual comparable fighting stats)...have this come into effect spring 42.

Cheers

Cheers

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Actually giving the Soviets HQ's at the time of invasion would be Historically correct.

Here are the 5 military district commanders that took the brunt of the invasion on June 22, 1941.

Leningrad Military District - Popov

Baltic M.D. - Kuznetsov

Western M.D. - Pavlov

Kiev M.D. - Kirponos

Odessa M.D. - Cherenchenko

I know some of those commanders are in the SC soviet HQ pool.

Believing the soviets should have no HQ's due to purges is not historically correct. They did have a officer corps that was being reformed after the fiasco of the Winter War. And Stalin had gone as far as starting to release officers from "re-education" in the gulags.

The problems resulted from inexperienced officers and the dual commandership of all units. Dual commandership was that the politruk could over rule the orders of the officer in charge. Just like officers Politruks could be good or bad.

As the war waged on Stalin limited the power of the politruks until it had diminished to the roll of morale and welfare instead of field command.

So giving the russians a few command 4 HQ's at the start of Barbarossa is a interesting Idea. I wonder how it would work.

Time to tweak.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

So giving the russians a few command 4 HQ's at the start of Barbarossa is a interesting Idea. I wonder how it would work.

Perhaps the very best idea I have seen thus far for restoring some semblance of play balance. :cool:

I would agree on 2 HQs, of a lower quality (... maybe 4 or 5) AND placed just far enough behind the front lines so that they do not in any way influence the initial German blitzkreig.

Then, they could be moved forward or backward depending on the individual player's preference for counter-attack or static defense (... or on realistic fear of Air attack).

This would save a whole passel of MPPs, and since the AI is reluctant or hard-pressed to buy any HQs at all, it has the other great advantage of insuring that Russia will be able to put up a reasonable defense (... before the Siberian transfer) without flooding the board with hoards of corps.

[Kuniworth]

Konstantin; you got the names right but military districts were not equivalient(how do you spell it?) to fronts. For instance there were never such thing as a "Baltic MD front" instead it was called "Northwest front". The same goes for Kiev MD which had a front called Southwest Front stationed there.

I dont believe in givin USSR more HQ. Instead I think that Industry tech should be higher.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Here is an excellent online source for June 22, 1941 Order of Battle: http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/012_ussr/41_oob/baltic/_baltic.html

It says the Baltic Special Military District. I'm sure I can find it in some of the books I have at home, if you'd like some more sources I can find them for ya. I have a lot of books on the Red Army.

It evolved into the Northwest Front.

Basically the point is that against a good Axis player the soviets are toast. Since there is no way to change the intial setup of their forces. Especially against the AI.

HQ's may be the solution for making it hard on the Axis.

They should have a higher tech in infantry weapons. Remember the germans invaded and their main weapon was the 37mm with the 50mm just coming into service.

"In Deadly Combat" is an excellent book by someone that crewed a 37mm until after the Sevastopol campaign in '42.

Of course we all know about T34, KVI and KVII.

The AI could use the help.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Oh and I should have added that for those of you interested there is an excellent book that details the Red Army at the start.

It's called:

Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War

by David M. Glantz

I definate thumbs up for those interested in this front.

[Augustus]

Originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

Actually giving the Soviets HQ's at the time of invasion would be Historically correct.

Here are the 5 military district commanders that took the brunt of the invasion on June 22, 1941.

Leningrad Military District - Popov

Baltic M.D. - Kuznetsov

Western M.D. - Pavlov

Kiev M.D. - Kirponos

Odessa M.D. - Cherenchenko

I know some of those commanders are in the SC soviet HQ pool.

Believing the soviets should have no HQ's due to purges is not historically correct. They did have a officer corps that was being reformed after the fiasco of the Winter War. And Stalin had gone as far as starting to release officers from "re-education" in the gulags.

The problems resulted from inexperienced officers and the dual commandership of all units. Dual commandership was that the politruk could over rule the orders of the officer in charge. Just like officers Politruks could be good or bad.

As the war waged on Stalin limited the power of the politruks until it had diminished to the roll of morale and welfare instead of field command.

So giving the russians a few command 4 HQ's at the start of Barbarossa is a interesting Idea. I wonder how it would work.

Time to tweak.

Howdy:

If you're gonna add HQ to Soviet force, in '41, I think that's a waste of hex space. Heck, if we took into consideration every unit in official orders of battle, we'd have mass confusion!

Given the scale of the current game, adding Soviet HQ's in '41 is impractical...give 'em better armour, which they rightfully deserve.

Cheers

[GroupNorth]

I'm all for adding two low-rank Soviet HQs. Contrary to popular belief, the Soviets were somewhat mobilized for Barbarossa (just not correctly), and they did have working HQs not that different than Leeb's or Bock's.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

[QB]

It says the Baltic Special Military District. I'm sure I can find it in some of the books I have at home, if you'd like some more sources I can find them for ya. I have a lot of books on the Red Army.

It evolved into the Northwest Front.

Basically the point is that against a good Axis player the soviets are toast. Since there is no way to change the intial setup of their forces. Especially against the AI.

HQ's may be the solution for making it hard on the Axis.

QB]

AFAIK the northwest front did not evolve to this at the eve of Barbarossa. The same goes for the southwest front and the western front as well. Instead as far as I recall fronts(armygroups) were the name for the units within the military district itself.

But I dont see no point arguing over this. Well if the Soviets should get HQ why not the french? Fact is that apart from the southwestern front not much worked during the first 3 month in the soviet command structure.

The thing I feel appalling with SC instead is the fact that axis can fight the allies to a stallmate -in 47. That is so wrong and not ww2 at all. Allied resources for the US and Russia must be increased so that German chances of winning the war offensively will fade away in the start of 1943.

There is an excellent boardgame outthere called "Totaler krieg" in which the axis reach a highwater mark and then begins to be pushed back. Peace is determined on how much the axis can hold off its gained ground. So both sides get an offensive and defensive period during the game. Much more historical and definately much more interesting.