North America

[General Billote]

It's a plus to read Dgaad and EB going at it...Holy christ did they hate each other!!!

[JerseyJohn]

Greetings General Billote,

Yes, to the point of violence. The nostalgia of their mutual hatred is like a breath of fresh air!

[General Billote]

LOL

[SeaWolf_48]

No Krauts in No. America, Hitler was looking East not West. Germany needed a navy to get to Canada or the US. Both France and Britain would not let Hilter use their navies, for that purpose. France was conquered and they would have scuddled their ships before allowing the germans use their navy. Same with Great Britain. Churhill already had a senario for the Royal Navy if England was conquered. He wanted the warships to go either to Canada or the US.

But Germany could build their own navy if they beat England in 1940, or Russia in 1942.

[JerseyJohn]

Well said SeaWolfe!

For some reason a lot of posters think invading North America would have been like building a few rowboats and crossing a stream. Glad you see it as reality.

[ December 20, 2002, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[General Billote]

The game certainly won't be perfect till the Atlantic is fixed but it's just something that has to wait for SC2...The question is if SC2 is going to be a pacific theater or an improved European Theatre? Has anyone heard any hints on this one?

[ December 20, 2002, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: General Billote ]

[SpitfireMarkX]

Canada IS the most underestimated country in this game. First of all by 1940, Canada's military was bigger then that of the United States. Just like when US went into World War One, Canada's military was 3 times the size of that of the United States.

Also Canada has no Oil? you gotta be kidding me? In this game, Norway, Sweeden, Romania, and Iraq are economically stronger then Canada?

Canada also has a military in this game equal to that of Bulgaria? Canada had the worlds 3rd largest navy on the allied side, not Vichy France, not Russia. Canada also had a VERY large air force, which has absolutly NOTHING in this game.

If their is a 1.07 patch, it would be excellant to see Canada become a little stronger.

[JerseyJohn]

Get 'em Brad! That'll teach them to mess with a Canadian!

Agreed all the way. What I'd really like is for the game to either be global, or to make it utterly impossible for Germany [and in some truly absurd cases, Italy] to cross the Atlantic and invade the Western Hemisphere.

As you know by now I'd like to see the whole Atlantic scene become more in tune with reality.

Hope you can suggest a few things that will help accomplish these ends. To me the Atlantic and the lack of weather are the most important remaining problems. In that order.

[SpitfireMarkX]

First thing is make Canada stronger. First of all give them oil!! then give them another unit. A naval vestle, or air unit. And if they attack Canada or USA, a screen could come up saying "canada uses consciption", and Canada would get a couple armys, and if USA is attacked, "USA has Draft!" and they would get a few more armys.

Once I took a beat up German corps, and that corps captured the northern USA, including a mine and an oil rig.

I am going to start a new forum about this also

[General Billote]

With you all the way. If Russia gets reinforced than certainly the same should be true for massively large countries like the U.S and Canada which aren't even fully represented on the map. And canadian units should be able to operate under British command

[JerseyJohn]

Brad --

Excellent. Can't wait to see it.

That's why I resurrected this thing, so the old info could be reveiwed and new ideas generated that aren't just reinventions of old wheels.

As I've said to the point of tedium, I think this is where the game needs the most work. The North Atlantic, weather and especially the Russian Winter follow closely behind.

General Billote

Right on the money as usual!

[ December 21, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I have mixed feeling about Germany being able to conduct an invasion across the Atlantic -- they couldn't even conduct one across the English Channel, which is a bit smaller on most maps. On the other hand, it adds an interesting concept but one that is difficult to imagine.

Add to that Hitler wouldn't have been interested in it... he is quoted (perhaps apocryphally) as saying that he is a "Lion on the continent and a mouse at sea." He hadthe same concerns faced here. Add to that even after years of war, the Higgens boat came as a huge shock and he was supposed to have decreed that the greatest innovation of the war, so we see that not only had there been no work in that direction, there weren't even any conceptual designs done that came close.

I think that even if the sealanes had been cleared, the question of manpower would have come to play. I don't care how much merchant or assault shipping they were able to build, I can't see how they could have stocked mounted a credible invasion force but kept Uncle Joe at bay at the same time.

But then I try to work in my manpower whinge when talkingabout things to clean up in the next version anyway.

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Compassion:

But then I try to work in my manpower whinge when talkingabout things to clean up in the next version anyway.

Yep, manpower should indeed be limited. At least so and so many armies per year, if not per war like in real life. There once again foreign volunteers come into play.

[JerseyJohn]

Compassion

Couldn't agree more!

Much of what you just stated is also stated in other postings earlier in the forum.

The whole invasion of North America is a very, very shaky subject in my mind and obviously in yours as well.

As for the Higgins Boat -- not to mention amphibious ducks etc., -- there wasn't any German Marine Corps! The only countries really skilled in these amphibious landing techniques were the U. S., Japan, and Britain.

German troops were landed in Norway with great difficulty after the first invaders simply walked down the gangplanks of docked cargo ships!

Glad you included that Hitler quote. I always get a kick out of it and it was absolutely true -- they guy fretted when his big ships weren't sitting in Baltic Ports!

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The North Atlantic, weather and especially the Russian Winter follow closely behind.

Dont intend to drive the discussion away from the original subject, but i also dare to see climatic conditions added to the game, especially the russian winter for more historical accuracy. V. 1.06 makes it much harder to conquer mother russia, what i do support, but generals winter & mud are still missing. Hopefully theyll be included in SC2, along with a world map.

[BriantheWise]

First of all, I have to ask

Compassion: What kind of name is that for a world war 2 forum. No disses here, and I'm not ramboing (I think that has become a lexicon on this site). But I have to say that your name, for this site, is almost as dumb as mine (no offense)

Second: Are there Canadians here or what? The oil was not captured prior to 1958. Before that, the Canadians knew it was there, but it wasn't worth it to bring it up (plus a bad gov policy)

Third: The rules on Canada and US are fine!

Guard your countries!

Fourth: I'm talking a little smack here. And I hope that's ok.

[JerseyJohn]

JayJay_H

Exactly -- the weather itself becomes part and parcel with the tactics and strategy. German tanks don't start in extreme cold and are abandoned to counter attacks which, a few days earlier in normal weather would have been brushed aside easily. Aircraft is grounded -- tons of complications that a good player would plan for and a poor player, one like Adolf, would get stuck in (literally).

BrianTheWise

but I can't comment as I like both you guys!

[Compassion]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

Compassion: What kind of name is that for a world war 2 forum. No disses here, and I'm not ramboing (I think that has become a lexicon on this site). But I have to say that your name, for this site, is almost as dumb as mine (no offense)

...

Fourth: I'm talking a little smack here. And I hope that's ok.

Note my member number here... pipe down junior!

My name comes from a name I used to use in FPS games. People would try to run some smack on me and then I'd shoot them down many times... and then tell them I felt their pain. When everyone else is names Beelzebubba or some such, it's much fun to not have a 13 year old's concept of dangerous as a handle.... I used to play alot with my brother... First Compassion would gun you down and then Weak Minded Fool would mop up... hehehe....

[ December 21, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by JayJay_H:

Dont intend to drive the discussion away from the original subject, but i also dare to see climatic conditions added to the game, especially the russian winter for more historical accuracy.

I think that shortening the number of turns in Winter is a fine way of simulating winter IF the time clock is an issue... say... setting up a superrule that public discontentwith the war goes up if you ond't have progress for so many turns or some such. At this scale, weather condidions, especially in winter become difficult to implement unless you balkanize the map for weather and terrain purposes.

[General Billote]

I agree with Brian in some measure. John and I have discussed this many times. If you are allowed to do it within Hubert's rules than a strategy is not gamey. "gamey" is a word for sore losers. By all means people should protect their countries. But that doesn't mean that the Atlantic situation shouldn't be imroved to reflect some realism. Consider the panic a few U-boats off the East-Coast caused and the overwhelming American response. You can't launch a surprise attack by sea against America...Hawaii is one thing...N.Y.C is another. We would have been waiting...Why am I even even discussing this?...The whole thing is insane.LOL

[ December 21, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: General Billote ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by General Billote:

[QB]I agree with Brian in some measure. John and I have discussed this many times. If you are allowed to do it within Hubert's rules than a strategy is not gamey. "gamey" is a word for sore losers.

I agree withthe rest of your post... hell, the American predilection for everyone to be armed would make an invasion in the 1940's impossible!

But Gamey play isn't just sore loser talk. Certainly if it's understood that mastering the game engine and getting the W is the important thing then fine, do whatever you want to make things work.. If however, you play an opponent, especlially one without much experience and you use a limitation or quirk in the game engine (like and early invasion of Canade) to win, then you are using a gamey strategy. Like I said, it desn't matter if it's two mature players playing for the W, but it is a situational call (here I am, Raider Fan calling for good sportmanship... man we are maligned sometimes...)

[General Billote]

(Compassion) But I don't play like that so "gamey" is for sore losers. I do hate that 16 air fleet strategy but that's not gamey, it's cheating besides if some tries to invade Canada on my watch they are going to get Bitch slapped. Someone must outline this "Early Canadian Strategy" it sounds like suicide to me.

[ December 21, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: General Billote ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by General Billote:

But I don't play like that so "gamey" is for sore losers.

Then yes, those who complain about innovative or unconventional tactics are double dawg whiney sore losers. I was just saying that there is a gamey accusation could be founded in truth.

Someone must outline this "Early Canadian Strategy" to me it sounds like suicide to me.

Simply, if even only parity is found in the Atlantic (in other words, a good season of Brit sinkings), then load up half the heer and land them in Canada and take them out of the war, even if Britain is still on it's isle. Do a fast turn around and invade the US. Easier said than done, but even with just Canada, the mpp's are worth a mint in denied Brit points.

Not for the faint of heart. I've read about it here, but have never tried it. It may be for the solo gamers as I've played all of two solo games to completion and think, as Han SOlo said: "Good against remotes is one thing.... Good against the living? THat's something else."

[ December 21, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[General Billote]

Well put Mr Compassion...That's the rub isn't it...sinking the whole British Navy..But if the Germans have done that, Why not invade a defenceless Britian?

there are a few stategies that take advantage of game mechanics. One is a 16 airfleet Nazi strategy that is unbeatable according to many.. I suppose that is an example of something that is truly gamey. Certainly "That's not fair...you invaded Canada and that's impossible" doesn't fall into that catagory.

[Compassion]

Originally posted by General Billote:

there are a few stategies that take advantage of game mechanics. One is a 16 airfleet Nazi strategy that is unbeatable according to many.. I suppose that is an example of something that is truly gamey. Certainly "That's not fair...you invaded Canada and that's impossible" doesn't fall into that catagory.

Ah, but it is a gamey exploit to get a little lucky and sink half the brit navy and be able to project an impossibley German weak invasion of Canada and then SR (I mean Operate...erm... letting my age show) 8 high level airflottes with even 1 long range point and then pound the US Easern Seaboard into rubble. That's IS a silly exploit of the game system. The invasion? Mebbe, mebbe not. That could be argued for days.... BUt hte SR'ing? Most definately a gamey exploit of the system.

[ December 21, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]