Simon Elwen Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Thanks for a great Demo guys I planned to steamroller the Low Countries and France and then turn East asap and it worked like a charm . As soon as I had Paris surrounded I started moving all available units to the border and also embarked 2 Armies 1 Corps and Rommel who I puchased to sail up the Baltic . With the Fall of France I purchased 2 airfleets and 3 Panzer groups and then lined up on the border as fast as possible with all the armour to the north of the pripet marsh region. After declaring war I attacked the Baltic fleet with both KM units reducing it to 2 and landed the invasion force to attack Leningrad from the south . Army group North went ramming into the russian forces at Minsk with the Luftwaffe in support . Army group south concentrated on the Russian unit to the southeast of Kiev. On the next turn Finland came in with me and Leningrad was surrounded . I was able reduce and capture the city in the last turn , having Rommel there really helped . What made all the difference was the AI which decided to advance the force north of Minsk to Riga and save up its MPP's to buy Zhukov The armoured spearheads bypassed Smolensk and headed straight to Moscow to deliver the knockout blow , follow up troops captured Minsk and threatened Smolensk . Army group south advanced on Kiev , when the Roumanians etc joined in they were tasked with isolating Odessa . I just managed to surround Moscow on the next to last turn , and attacked with a couple of panzer groups which reduced the garrison to 8 . Followup units emptied Smolensk and I got a Corps unit to march through the city which gave it to me , then I had an Air group transport to the city . On the last turn I was able to capure Leningrad and Rommel himself entered the city . With Moscow surrounded I attacked with the Luftwaffe and every available tank unit and with the next last unit I emptied the city My last unit moved in . Hooray Victroy is mine ! but no Stalin zoomed off to the Urals to carry on the fight and I ran out of turns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willgamer Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Excellent! I've similarly attacked early, but never taken Moscow. Got right up next to it though playing on expert+0 level. One slight difference is that I've usually attacked the Baltic States first so all my attacks were overland. In every game I've played the AI has changed up its gameplan. If the demo is this replayable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by willgamer: Excellent! I've similarly attacked early, but never taken Moscow. Got right up next to it though playing on expert+0 level. One slight difference is that I've usually attacked the Baltic States first so all my attacks were overland. In every game I've played the AI has changed up its gameplan. If the demo is this replayable... I agree, we have all played the DEMO numerous times... that speaks wonders for the replay value of the full game! The AI definately gives a different fight each time. My last game I was planning on a quick capture of France and an early invasion of Russia, but the AI held me off longer than it ever has before in France, and bogged down my whole plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozzer Posted May 27, 2002 Share Posted May 27, 2002 I've tried the old 'all out attack on Russia and see how far you get' strategy and have managed to marched to the gates of Moscow by the time the demo ends. It seems the key is just to use your armoured units and corps just to overwhelm the Soviet defences by constantly moving forward, exploiting the gaps that the (early on) too few Red Army units are unable to pug and leaving isolated units to be mopped up by second echelon units. I might come to eat these words but marching to the Urals does not look too difficult. The problem is that I left France and Germany utterly undefended, used every last troop on the attack on Russia, and the British did.... nothing!! Save drop a few bombs on a couple of cities, the British did not land troops at all even though there were no forces at all between the Channel coast and Berlin! Perhaps that is because of the FOW and the Brits not realising that but it seems a bit unrealistic. Love the game though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 The historical reality was that spring and fall rains, and the mud that resulted, slowed the Germans and allowed the Russians time to react. That is not portrayed in SC where all turns are essentially the same. The variable turn length very abstractly represents the changing optempo due to seasonal effects, but (as demonstrated with the demo so far) nothing "prevents" you from declaring war in the winter and blitzing your way to Moscow through the spring mud. There are a lot of might-have-been scenarios for WWII, but this isn't one of them. I'm hoping that experience with the campaign game will temper some of these abstractions. I noticed in my early invasion of Russia last night that a pro-Allied coup in Yugoslavia occured. Game ended before I had to deal with that development. I suspect the AI isn't invading France until US enters. There's risk to an early invasion, so it's fine to know the AI isn't stupid. So anyway, while seasonal effects (mud) delayed the German invasion of Russia, there may be other compelling reasons to wait in SC - take care of Balkans flank, wait for minor allies to enter, etc. So hopefully the campaign game plays out well. And even for this scenario, wouldn't it last longer than 1 year in the release version? There are long-term issues to consider. If the game doesn't consistently play out well, and things like an easy spring invasion of Russia or easy winter invasion of Britain become standard strategies, then something's amiss and needs fixing. Let's see how it goes for now. SC has an interesting system, but I can't help thinking that standard 2-week turns with spring/fall rain/mud and winter snow/storms would be preferable. It's the same number of turns/year, but the current system presents numerous abstractions, while the other system would have realistic seasonal effects and a consistent economic model. It should play just as well and just as quickly for the beer&pretzels crowd, without the associated headaches for the grognard crowd looking for some historical accuracy. We don't need to make the game much more complicated, just a little more realistic. Another comment from last night's game. I got up to four research points for the Germans in various areas and got nowhere all year. In spring 41 the Italians bought 1 research point in gun laying radar and achieved success the very next turn. Win some, lose some. No hint about what the other guys were doing. Maybe a 5% chance per point of learning what area is being researched by the enemy - comparable to what they're emphasizing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 Good points Bill, I was thinking the same thing last night. There is no reason for the German player not to attack Russia in the during winter or the two mud seasons. I usually launch the assault in early winter! I don't know which would be an easier fix, reduced movement for land units or increasing the defense value during those time periods. But you would need to figure out how to apply and show it on the map for the areas effected. Would be nice if the season was shown by the date too. Simon, I've been trying about the same thing. But while I'm waiting for France to fall and moving and reorganizing the armies back to the Russian border, I take a Tank and Army to Sweden and loot it for the points. Really pays off. I leave Yugoslavia to the Italians. March one of the minor allies corps in there and all the points go to the Germans. I totally skip research too. While it's fun to play with, the demo is to short to take the chance of it not paying off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimlord Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 yea when i do research it seems that i get it with one point a lot quicker than with more...3 games in a row i put one point in jet fighters and within 2 turns got it each time... the mud hurt germany in the war but i think the biggest issue is the vast didstances to moscow (and anywhere else in russia for that matter) as well as the fact that there were very few roads in russia...in fact only one major road went to moscow from the border and it wasnt even paved all the way.... an idea might be to increase the terrain cost in russia and other underdeveloped countries... as to sweden...that country is easy money usually falls the third turn to 3 corps, a crusier, and one army (all from the polish-berlin garrisons)...nice value from it.... two other points worth mentioning 1) sweden was actually the major trading partner of germany throughout the war...maybe there should be some way to reflect that in some form of monetary approach... 2) russia gave money and equipemnt to germany as part of the treaty between them...in fact geramny delayed the attack on russia until the last supply train was over the border into poland....again maybe germany should recieve some sort of economic assistance from russia until it attacks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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