AI errors (long)

[John DiFool]

After several games (run via both sides), I have

a pretty good handle on many of the AI 'quirks'.

Thus for the purposes of future patches I'll list

some of the most egregrious ones:

1. If you are playing the Axis and the Brits/US

are hankering to invade you, position a sub

southeast of the port of Brest. The poor AI will

continue to run its transports into the sub,

getting them surprised and damaged or sunk. Even

weirder, if a previous transport survived the

combat, a new transport will blunder along, get

surprised ON TOP of the damaged transport, and

cause the latter to vanish! For some reason it

doesn't send its warships down there to sink the

sub first (perhaps because it already moved them

all that turn?).

2. As the Germans the AI seems to have an

inordinate love for building lots of army corps-

to the exclusion of all else. Any armor or armies

present during Barbarossa are mere leftovers from

1939.

3. As the Russians the AI loves to build HQs and

fighters. Well yes it needs the former but I'm

not sure if fighters are cost-effective for the

Russkies, as they just tend to get shot out of the

sky all the time. The end result is, if you can

shatter a section of front (in the latter stages

of the campaign-1943 onward), the entire front

will often collapse because the Russians haven't

carefully assembled a reserve. In the endgame it

is funny as the only things he has left are HQs

and air units!

4. Clash of Steel flashback: just as in that game,

the AI fails to have a substantial force in the

Caucasus (and if he loses the Caucasus he loses

the game). I also noticed that the Russians took

a 90 point hit in MPPs when I surrounded

Stalingrad and cut off the south from the north.

So this sector of the front is the most crucial-

i.e. don't waste your time as the Germans going

for Moscow!

5. I think the Axis tend to be a little trigger-

happy: declaring war on Vichy only moves the US

Entry up and gives the Brits some needed MPPs,

even if Marseilles falls.

John DiFool

[ August 10, 2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: John DiFool ]

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by John DiFool:

After several games (run via both sides), I have

a pretty good handle on many of the AI 'quirks'.

Thus for the purposes of future patches I'll list

some of the most egregrious ones:

(snip...)

2. As the Germans the AI seems to have an

inordinate love for building lots of army corps-

to the exclusion of all else. Any armor or armies

present during Barbarossa are mere leftovers from

1939.

(...snip)

John DiFool

John, my experience with the German AI (and so far I've only played Allies) is that it will build tank corps. I've seen it build a balanced force so far, and I've played against the +1 and +2 AI. The only thing it doesn't seem to build is subs and ships, which is fairly credible.

One odd thing (to me) is that the Italian AI will usually focus research on jet technology...I've never seen the AI improve Italian tech yet. Also, the German AI does not seem to go after tanks or rockets on its own.

I just finished a taut and exiting +1 game as Allies and won in late 44 with 154 points overall. Now I'm ready to try my hand as the Axis, though if my Russian wife sees me doing this, I'll catch hellski!

[arby]

John, my experience with the German AI (and so far I've only played Allies) is that it will build tank corps. I've seen it build a balanced force so far, and I've played against the +1 and +2 AI. The only thing it doesn't seem to build is subs and ships, which is fairly credible.

One odd thing (to me) is that the Italian AI will usually focus research on jet technology...I've never seen the AI improve Italian tech yet. Also, the German AI does not seem to go after tanks or rockets on its own.

I'll go along with John; I've played a number of games as the Allies, and make a special point of trying to eliminate German tank groups. I can usually take out 2 or 3, and by late 1942, it's rare to see one. There are corps out the wazoo, though. This may have something to do with the settings; I usually use +1 bonus for the AI. Considering that you can get five corps for the cost of two tank groups, and at +1 they're pretty effective against even armies and other tank groups, it's a pretty good investment.

I agree with you about the AI. I don't know if the German invests in Ind Tech, but he sure doesn't invest in anything else. On the other hand, I've had the Italians with Jets at 15.

[Gunslingr3]

I'll play a few games with FOW off so I can watch, but I can anecdotally attest to the AI purchasing tank armies as the Axis. My last game was as the Allies, Expert +2 difficulty. When the Germans finally hit Russia (I had stymied him in the Baltic, so Denmark and Norway were never attacked) in the summer of '42 (the Germans declared war immediately after the Russians prepared for war) he had 5 or 6 tank armies on that front. With FOW on an exact count was difficult because my initial rear covering actions had poor spotting without air cover, and he would reorganize his line by operating tank armies off the front lines and out of sight.

The AI is susceptible to the sub off of Brest, I learned that one as well. Carrying over unit location info from the turn before is likely not being done now, and would be a major pain, if not impossible, to implement, but could the AI learn to scout and or patrol the path its transports use before committing them? My sub was getting all those kills while the Royal Navy and U.S. Navy were clusted around Brest shelling the bejeezus out of the garrison and blithely ignoring the losses my single sub was exacting on the southern wing of his invasion.

Gunslinger

[Horthy]

One interesting AI mistake I found out was the following. I was playing as the Allies in Fall Gelb. I was holding the line very well in France, while the Brits succesfully invaded Norway. Then, in a great improvement to the beta demo, Italy declared war to help the Germans. I managed to hold them off very well in France, and meanwhile started a little diversion by trying a small naval invasion.

First I moved a transported corps adjacent to Palermo. Italy immediately raised a corps there (or operated one in, I don't remember). So the AI can deal with that tactic. Next turn I moved another corps so that it could land 1 hex distant from Bari, but not adjacent. The AI did not react, even though it had the MPP to do so, and was not significantly engaged elsewhere. In fact I think it didn't build anything at all that turn. So, next turn I landed my corps, and advanced it one hex into Bari. Obviously, the AI couldn't deal with that tactic.

[dasreich]

I hope Hubert is scanning this thread, as many important points have been raised.

I think the brest-sub is pretty much universal, and I have even fell prey to it. And my transports stacked and made each other disappear too. Odd. I have also noticed the Russian tendency to abandon the caucasus and build too many HQ's and fighter fleets. If they build so many HQ's, they should be building masses of corps to delay the Germans until the West can provide a decent distraction. Stalingrad should be considered a priority defense by the AI, as it was a very important target in real life.

Anyway, perhaps in the next patch these AI quirks will be addressed.

[bardosy]

Hi Horthy! I have a bet (piros pottyos turorudi), you are Hungarian... hehe

I'm your prime minister. You remember me?

[jacob lundgren]

strange. in my first full ally game the germans built too many planes and almost no corps. though their tech did advance quite well.

in my axis game the russians took forever to kill cuz almost the only thing they bought were corps and this led to pockets all over the place and a long war.

[Hubert Cater]

I think the brest-sub is pretty much universal, and I have even fell prey to it. And my transports stacked and made each other disappear too.

This has already been fixed on my end, expect another patch soon.

Hubert

[winkelried]

Hubert, maybe you read my comments in the thread "Defending France". I feel that the AI is a bit too conservative as the Germans for a real "Blitz". Do you have any ideas why this is so?

By the way, I like SC a lot. Its simple to use and great fun.

Something else: Sometimes its a bit boring to run through the whole war. Would it be possible to define an earlier end date and some victory conditions (e.g. take Paris, destroy 50% of the Royal Navy etc ...)

[ August 13, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: winkelried ]