For a Stronger Spain

[Edwin P.]

1. The Allies should have the option to Activate Spanish Partisans after Spain Surrenders, for a cost of 125MPP. This represents the cost of a concerted effort by the British to supply and organize Spanish Partisan units. Now the Axis will be forced to garrison all Spanish Resource Hexes and the allies can gain valuable intelligence on Axis activities in Iberia.

The Allies should also have this option for the Nordic Countries - Norway & Sweden if the Axis conquers both Norway and Sweden.

2. Spanish units should start to entrench after the Axis attacks Vichy France, Sweden, or Switzerland. This assumes that the Spanish High Command decides to prepare for a defense of Spain.

3. If the Axis attacks Vichy France and Sweden then a Neutral Spain should have a 20% per turn to moblize an extra corps, up to a maximum of 4 additional units. This represents a mobilization to deter any Axis Invasion and these forces will impede any Axis invasion of Spain.

4. If the UK Falls then Spain should have a chance to Annex the Rock. This reflects their historical claims upon the Rock.

5. Each turn Allies should have the option to give Neutral Spain 65MPP to finance the mobilizatin of another Corps Unit. Thus improving Spain's ability to defend itself. Of course these corps will not do the Allies any good if the Axis does not invade Spain.

6. If the Axis attacks Spain and Vichy France and Sweden then the UK should have the option to give Gibralter to the US; subject to the approval of the British Parliment - say a 25% chance of this transfer being approved if the UK decides upon this option.

Thus any attack upon the Rock will bring the US into the War and the Italian navy is blocked from entering the Atlantic.

7. If the Allies have attacked a neutral Spain and Ireland then Turkey should have a small chance to join the Axis, being naturally fearful that they are next on the list. At the same time if the Axis attacks Spain and Sweden and Switzerland then Turkey should have a chance, say 20%, to join the Allies. (or perhaps just Spain and Sweden)

[ March 16, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[kurt88]

Edwin,

As always very good suggestions. I sure hope MR.H reads your postings here, SC2 could really benefit from ideas.

[Bill101]

Regarding partisans, I think that Spain should work like Yugoslavia and Russia, with home-grown partisan units appearing.

There was an anti-fascist resistance movement in Spain during the war already, and the conquest of Spain by the Axis would have provided more recruits to the guerillas - though it would not necessarily have made them any more united.

An allied conquest would probably have seen the guerillas come out into the open, as they would have welcomed the allies, but at the same time it would probably have seen Franco's supporters take to the hills in their place!

Hopefully partisan units in SC2 will appear a bit more at random than in the current game where we can easily prevent them by putting garrisons in the right hexes.

However, your idea of allowing the UK to spend MPPs on partisans is good. My idea is that if the UK invests, not only should partisans be more likely to appear, but they should also be better than without that investment.

Maybe a partisan unit without investment is strength 5 but without experience, while one with investment has that 1 point of experience?

I also think that Russia should be allowed to invest in partisans, both within the USSR and also in Greece and Yugoslavia (where the UK could be able to invest too, if the game mechanism allows them both to be investing in the same country).

Better partisan warfare will help balance this game, and it will also give more opportunities to the allied player, thus making it more interesting for them while the Axis are busy conquering all the neutrals before they invade Russia.

I agree with all your other points, except for the one relating to giving Gibraltar to a neutral USA. The UK would only have done such a thing if it could have continued to use Gibraltar to refuel, and also to pass through to and from the Mediterrenean. If the game mechanism would allow this, then I'm happy with your idea.

Or perhaps a 20% chance of the USA joining the allies in the event of an attack on Gibraltar could be built into the game itself, thus avoiding any transfers of sovereignty.

Gibraltar is a place that the British feel very strongly about, and there would have been massive opposition to a transfer of sovereignty to any other country.

[ March 16, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt

I'm sure Hubert has been reading Edwin's great ideas from way back; looking forward to seeing a lot of them in SC2, when I receive it as a gift in the Senior Center.

Edwin

Like all your suggestions. In the case of reaction to the Axis invading other countries I really think Spain's natural course would always have gone toward joining the Axis instead of preparing to defend against it.

Unless ...

The Allies were winning the war.

To me it's that simple. Franco was the ultimate survivor. He didn't care for the Nazis but was also too smart to risk a determined German invasion.

I'd shift all possibilities toward his gravitating to his fellow dictators unless certain conditions are met by the allies -- what conditions would need to be worked out and would probably the situation in the Mediteranean would effect it more than anything else. If Italy were driven to the verge of surrender then, naturally, Franco would join the Allies over the Axis. A system that weights various conditions in determining Spain's decision would probably be best.

-- Vichy is conquered by German or Italy : moves Spain toward the Axis!

-- Allies possess any of the following, Brest, Bordeaux, Marsielles, : Spain is driven further from Axis per each of these the Allies possess.

Allies possess Libya and / or Albania : same as above.

Allies possess Sicily and / or Toronto : same as above.

1940-41, U. S. and USSR are neutral, Germany has more than (-?-) number of units + HQs still in France, strong possibility Spain will Join Axis. If the the German total is below that amount the possibility drops proportionally. This would be to simulate the Canaris visit to Madrid where he convinced Franco that Hitler had already moved too many of his units east to turn south against him. If the forces are still in France and very strong, possibly near the Spanish border, then Franco reluctantly joins the Axis.

If the above situation occurs and the Axis captures Gibraltar I think there should be a chance that the UK agrees to an armistace. Soviet readiness immediately rises and after three turns Germany must either declare war on the USSR or accept a draw.

-- Reason for armistace: If Spain joins the Axis Germany gets Canary Island U-boat and air bases. Gibraltar falls and U. K. is definitely losing the war, presumably Churchill is replaced by a consiliatory PM & Cabinet, Hitler attains his basic goal of not fighting a bloody war against Aryan Britain. Stalin, at this point, is finally arroused and convinced the next step is a preventive war against Germany.

With a neutral U.K., the U. S. needs to be reassessed. Further complications could influence the UK reentering and the U. S. joining. Possibly Germany sending troops to occupy former Dutch and Belgian or French colonies in Africa, presumably in violation of the Anglo-German armistace ... etc.

All of it a bit drawn out, but I think reflecting the most likely historical possibilities.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn,

Interesting and realistic take but for game balance, unless -

1. Spain joins Axis and Axis units can freely enter Spain

2. Axis receives only 50% to 0% (Determined Randomly) of Spanish MPP production as Franco retains the rest for Spain.

3. The movement of Spanish units is limited to Spain, Vichy France and Vichy Algeria.

4. If Axis conquers Gibraltar then they must give it to Spain or risk chance that Spain joins Allies during Allied Invasion of France or when 5+ US transports are off the coast of Spain.

5. Partisans provide allies with detailed intelligence on Axis troop movements within Spain. (Ie NO FOW for Axis units in Spain or Spanish Units)

6. Spanish Army Unit guards Madrid and may not move from this city. Axis units may not enter Madrid.

7. If Axis attacks allied Spanish units then Turkey automatically joins Allies.

[ March 17, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Good additions -- Hitler never intended to not have the Spanish control Gibraltar; the Mediteranean never had value for him, he saw it as an Italian sphere.

As far as movement of Allied Minor units, I think restrictions should apply to all of them. Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, for example, should all need to have their weakest unit, the corps, permanently stationed in their capital. It would be okay for their army units to leave the country, however.

If Spain were a full fledged member of the Axis it is perfectly conceivable that Franco would have sent an army to fight in Russia: as it was he sent a division of volunteers -- all in all I think 60,000 Spaniards were involved.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn,

Thanks for the background on Franco's volunteers. Most interesting.

With Spain I think that the Axis should really have the option to bargain with Franco and select a response to his impossible demands, which they might agree to. Of course agreeing to his demands might upset another Axis ally; Italy, either prompting them to withdraw from the Alliance (highly unlikely) or restrict the movement of Italian troops to Italian controlled territories (more likely).

Example:

Diplomatic Options for Germany vs Spain

Germany

1> Demand that Franco join the Axis

2> Ask Franco to join the Axis

3> Threaten Franco into joining the Axis by threatening to invade Spain.

------------------------------------------------

If (2) then

General Franco demands Gibraltar, Vichy Algeria, and Italian Libya if Spain is to join the Axis and he also want arms to equip 1 Air Fleet.

If Germany Agrees then:

40% No Italian Reaction

40% Italy Restricts Movement of Troops to Italian Controlled Territories - ie no Italian troops available to defend France or fight in Russia.

20% Italy Withdraws from Axis, becomes Neutral Nation. Italian troops garrision all Italian cities.

If Germany agrees to Give Franco only Gibraltar and Algeria then 75% the Franco will reject the German offer and 20% Italy restricts movements of Troops to Italian controlled territories as Italy is insulted by gesture towards Spain.

If Germany agrees to Give Franco only Gibraltar then 90% that Franco will reject the German Offer.

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If (3) (where Germany threatens an Invasion)

25% That Spain and Turkey announce a Defensive Alliance. An attack on one is an attack on the other.

10% Per German unit on the border of Spain that Spain agrees to Join the Axis (But, No Plunder for Germany)

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Of course if Germany decides to attack Spain instead of negotiating with Franco it may (say 30% chance) cause Turkey to join the Allies at an opportune moment, while secretly allowing aid to flow to Russia (in the form of a secret 50MPP production bonus to Russia until Turkey joins the Allies at a randomly determined later date, say 25% each turn that 4 allied units are in France)

[ March 17, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Hitler and Mussolini both saw Tunisia, Malta and Egypt as being in the Italian sphere. None of those territories would ever have been offered to Spain.

Franco himself never broached the subject, he had a well defined sense of Spain's sphere, which was also cut off by the Pyranies -- no mention of Southern France, only Morocco, Algeria and [French] Equatorial Africa.

In their 1940 meeting Hitler refused any mention of either Morocco or Algeria or Equitroial Africa because he still hoped Vichy would join the Axis. He later realized Petan was only stringing him along and regretted not redrawing the Vichy map a little to at least offer Franco Morocco. So I'd say it's feasible that Germany could offer Spain the North African region, but if Spain accepts it should either put Vichy back in the war on the Allies, or make them an outright member of the Axis. It's much more likely they'd have joined the Axis instead of offering themselves up as a sacrifice.

The only territories on the map that I can see Germany offering Spain were Gibraltar and Algeria, that's it, no Italian territory even if Italy had been driven out of them.

In exchange Hitler's only desire was to establish a U-boat base in the Canary Islands. Germany didn't want to garrison Gibraltar themselves, they wanted no part of the Mediteranean, they felt things would only be right if Spain took control of it.

[ March 17, 2004, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Who cares about N. Africa? No value, no resources, no glory.

[JerseyJohn]

[ March 18, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]