SC: National Characteristics

[Shaka of Carthage]

One of the reasons that SC cannot qualify as a WWII simulation, is that fact that our units are generic. There is no difference between a German or Russian Army. So, how do we make our Grey, Red, Green units into Germans, Soviets and US? Luckily, in a post he wrote, JerseyJohn brought it all together for me. Please remember that this is for SC (not SCII) and experience is the only easy way to reflect leadership and training.

Army unit action points should be two (2). Corp unit action points should be three (3). New units Army (M) and Corp (M) would use the current action points.

Initial German (and Finnish) units would have two (2) experience bars. Only exception would be the Surface ships, which would only have one (1) bar.

Initial Italian ground units get no experience bars. Naval units get one (1) experience bar.

Initial French units get no experience bars.

UK initial units (and half of the Greek and Spanish units) would have one (1) experience bar. Naval ships however, would have two (2).

Initial US ground units gets no experience bars. One of the naval units and both air (see below) gets one (1) experience bar.

Initial Russian units get no experience bars and none of them are Army (M) or Corp (M).

Only UK and US can build Army (M) or Corp (M). Russians can only build Corp (M).

Newly raised units, regardless of nation or type, would be created with no experience bars.

I'm sorry Hubert, but I just cannot figure out any other method that doesn't require a unit change.

The action points of the Army and Corp units are too high. They are more along the lines of what a motorized Army or Corp would have. The Germans, Italians and early Soviets were not motorized, heavily dependent on horses for transport. They really should be one and a half (1.5) and three (3), but you work with what you've got.

The rest is easy, and as a matter of fact, can be handled thru the Campaign Editor. And it does reflect the relative combat effectivness of the different nations. Can you modify the units of Finland, Greek and Spanish thru the Campaign Editor?

When Germany doubled its military in 1940, it did so by pulling men and equipment from existing units to form experienced cadre in the new units. We have no way of doing that in SC. The to&e of our ’39 units is identical to the to&e of our ’44 units. All other nations, with a few exceptions, went thru a more modest expansion. US units, when initially raised, where green as green can be. They spent a year or more training as a unit. We do not replicate that in SC.

Italy should have an 5 point air, in which case it should have one (1) bar of experience. However, I believe the Italian economy is too strong, and this just gives them more. If they had the resource restriction, then they should get this unit.

US needs to have more initial units or a change in the initial mix. There should be one air and one bomber unit. Why? All of the above is based on a Corp being roughly the same size in combat power. Exception is the US. Its Corp is really an SC Army, and its Division is really an SC Corp. US units relative to the other nations had more combat power. And they had more non-divisional combat and combat support units attached to them. Initial US setup should have one air unit and one bomber unit. US Army Air Corp got the cream of the recruits.

The Russian Army formation is really an SC Corp.

Now solving the Manpower issue becomes much easier, for without a standard unit across all the various years, it was impossible to design a workable solution.

Are there any takers out there willing to play using the above?

[ February 04, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Hubert Cater]

I'm sorry Hubert, but I just cannot figure out any other method that doesn't require a unit change.

Correct, the units in SC were chosen to be generic with the weighted factor between nations a result of leadership ratings for HQ's. The majors will have HQ's while the minors will not etc., and some HQ's are better than others especially between nations like Germany and France.

While the added value of having units under an HQ seemed to work well wrt combat formulas in creating some of the difference between nations, it is not to say that this area may or may not be revisited in future versions. (I also chose to use Experience as a variable for units to reflect for example early experiences in Poland for the German army to make a difference in the upcoming battle for France and so on)

One way to look at all this is perhaps understanding that often "necessity IS the mother of all inventions". For me the necessity was to create a game that would not take half a life time to achieve while at the same time try and be worth the one shot type deal I took in taking 2 years out to make a game like SC. Long story short it was honestly a pretty big undertaking for one person to see thru and so often during the process it came down to asking myself what do I want in the game while at the same time eliminating much of the unnecessary fluff (of course in my opinion at the time ). In the end, and understanding the software development cycle, you often have to make many decisions early on and stick with them to get the project done properly. So for me there were many decisions made to simplify effects/options while at the same time maintaining depth with the result being what SC is today. Some of this does end up being a double edged sword where at one time SC may be lauded for a streamlined easy to use interface while at the same time criticised for not having enough of this or that etc.

Now, looking back I think it may have really been a coin toss as to whether or not SC would have been an interesting game if I had the extra time to do everything I wanted but either way I think the experience from this project and much of the feedback from players like yourself will make any future versions that much better.

Hubert

[Shaka of Carthage]

Thanks for the response.

Believe me, I fully understand. Creating a software project is not an easy undertaking... especially for one man. You have to make so many decisions, deal with so many problems and then to have all these people say if you had only done this or that, how much better it would have been. :mad: No matter what decision you would have made, there is always something else that we would have wanted.

All of us appreciate the fact that you listen to what we have to say, even though we may not be very clear in what we are trying to say. Or we take forever to say it!

Btw, if you have yourself hypnotized into believing you only need four (4) hours of sleep, that gives you another twenty-eight (28) hours a week... thats seven hundred twenty-eight (728) extra man-hours every six (6) months. On a schedule like that, you should be able to finish SC II very quick. Right?

Thanks,

Barry

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Thanks for the Good Word. You've represented what I was saying to perfection, couldn't have done it better and I'm very pleased you did.

In your reduced sleep time advice to Hubert I have to add, if only we can find the physician who treated Hitler and -- well, by 1942 he had Adolf down to a mere 90 minutes of sleep a day and it apparently didn't effect his decisions at all!

Hubert

Great feedback. As Shaka says, we all admire the fact that you've created this game virtually singlehandedly. Even those of us who aren't programmers can appreciate what a task thay must have been without even getting into the requisite research and the simple yes and no deceisions where perhaps you'd have wanted to include a maybe. .

While I've always been quick to make suggestions and point out what I felt were failing, principally the Atlantic and lack of weather, I hope you appreciate it was always because my feeling is that this is much more than a beer and pretzle game. I've never written a single suggestion to any other game manufacturer because I felt (1) the game itself wasn't worth it or (2) it would only be tossed in the can.

But this game is different and you are different. The game itself is great and maddening because it can obviously be greater. You prove that yourself with each patch! And you're different because you actually invite suggestions and respond to them.

And, incidentally, I've never seen you offer as much feedback as you have recently, not only on the game but also on historical topics, and am overjoyed you're doing so.

Now, about that Vienese sleep doctor . . .

[ February 05, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kurt88]

Sorry to butt in like this,but i was wondering how do you guys make your posts that long,i cant seem to go any further than a line or 10!

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt

You need to work on longwindedness!

[xwormwood]

Why should British Ships gain an advantage in experience? Show me one example where British Ships fought better than their german counterparts in a 1:1 situation. They won because they've got more ships, not better training (same situation in WW1).

[JerseyJohn]

xwormwood

Agreed. From captain on down I think the British and German navies were a push.

The Royal Navy had better admirals. The Bismark is a case for this view. It was sent to sea without a destroyer escort, only the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, which could have used a few destroyers herself! The lack of escort left these two large ships vulnerable not only to submarines but also reduced them against air attack by depriving them of an outter rind of AA defense.

As the situation worsened, the German Admiral, Gunther Luetgens, at first managed to skilfully evade the pursueing British and even convinced them he was returning to Norway. Then, with the British home fleet moving full tilt away from him, he made an insane legnthy ass kissing radio message to Hitler allowing the Brits to triangulate on his precise position. They hit his ship with torpedoes from biplanes that an outter ring of destroyers might well have shot down, and the rest is well known.

I doubt a British Admiral would have handled the

situation so horribly or gone to see without only two large ships unescorted.

In any case, there are no Admiral HQs in this game so it can't be a factor. Perhaps it shouldn't be in that it might require more effort and more of the games resources than it could return.

In the opening scenarios mentioned before that I've been experimenting with, the naval units experience levels remain untouched.

Probably Shaka's reasoning is that the actual crews of the German ships, being of a much smaller number than the British, received more extensive training. That may be true; Hitler Youth sent cadets to naval training and in some instances naval training began with boys not yet of draft age (16 and younger, though they were not sent on active voyages, of course, till they were 18 or older). That being the case there is justification in giving them a higher experience level.

[Hubert Cater]

Great feedback. As Shaka says, we all admire the fact that you've created this game virtually singlehandedly.

Shaka & Jersey

Thanks, and just in case the last post did come across as slightly sleep deprived , I was of course just making excuses

Either way, if I include any of the recent ideas, some of you are going to be REALLY sorry. If you thought it was addictive now, just wait until....

Hubert

[ February 05, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Hubert Cater ]

[Liam]

It shouldn't be hard to give each individual unit a seperate icon? For instance German Aircraft Development, with Fighters. Starts with the ME109..then ME109E...FW190A...FW190-D and then finally the top of the line ME262. Similarly USA P40/P38/P47/P51/and it's jet version. Although the P38/P47/P51 are also long range aircraft..

Also alter Jet Fighter technology to Aircraft Fighter Technology...4 times more correct

[Shaka of Carthage]

Let me second what JerseyJohn said... SC is so much more than a beer and pretzels game. Grand Strategy WWII? You can count the computer games that covered this in the last twenty years on your hands. And to find one that was done well?

Kurt88

Well see, its like this ... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and of course there is the blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Ok?

Don't forget that wargaming is a hobby for the overeducated.

xwormwood

I don't know that much about the naval warfare aspects of WWII. I was kinda assuming that as a global "blue water" navy the UK would be better at it than the "wannabe" Germans. You know what they say when you "ass u me".

Liam

Are you using the modified units, and for that matter, the SC Deluxe Edition? I believe those items would give you what you want... and there are a couple of different unit sets to choose from.

[JerseyJohn]

Hubert

I'm looking forward to being "really sorry" aside from which it's a good addiction and keeps me out of trouble!