Hans Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 In the 17th and 18th centuries a number of French people migrated to Germany. Did the Germans have a name or designation for these "Germanized" French? I'm asking this as a source for a scenario* speaks of a German officer with a French background who mentions "our identity as less than fully German". *Small Battles, Deception, 1940 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Alsations? from Wikipedia "Language The local German dialects are Alsatian and Frankish. Both are referred to as alsacien in French, and neither have any form of official recognition. When Alsace was under German control from 500 to 1648, from 1871 to 1919 and from 1940 to 1944, use of the German language was mandatory. However, parts of the région spoke French exclusively." Apparently with each change of control certain amounts of the population left for their former overlords. In 1870 it was put at 50,000. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Not just the Alsatians but the Huguenots, escapees from the terror, etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 @Hans: It is most likely just "Hugenotten". I don't know of anything else. "To stem from an old Huguenots family". Lots of them, especially around Berlin. @DT: Mandatory use of German language in the Alsace? a) Before Luther translated the bible there wasn't even a "standard" German. Only accents. So I doubt "German" was mandatory in the Alsace before 1550. German control from 500 AD on is a bit confusing.... In 800 AD Charlemagne (for the French) or "Karl der Große" (for the Germans) was "Kaiser" (aka Ceasar) of the "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation" - the formal successor of the ancient Roman Empire. Yet the French still claim him as one of theirs. He ruled the Germanic tribe of the Franks, and "Frankreich" (=German for France) is an abbreviation of "Frankenreich" (="Empire of the Franks") in German. As Charlemagne was French for the French, the French will claim the Alsace was French in and after 800. The "1st empire" slowly faded away after 1200AD. The Alsace was not under control of the French King then and it was considered part of Germany. But then... what actually is "Germany"? In 1871 the "Kleindeutsche Lösung" (the "small Germany" solution - leaving Austria and its possesions out of Germany) was chosen by Bismarck. Before Germany was more an idea than a reality. I like the slogan "Germany in the borders of 1154 - Sicily is ours!". Best describes the problem. A weak Germany - or the many weak German states and fiefdoms (more than 100) that existed was easy prey for France. France expanded and the French kings favored "natural borders". One of those was the Rhine. There were several attempts to get there. During the 30 years war, Germany was devastated and found itself a bit smaller afterwards (1648). Read: The Alsace became French. Following that were several attempts to seize the Palatinate (which is North of the Alsace and between France and the Rhine) to seize a bigger part of the Rhine, but most failed - or had only limited success. Heidelberg castle was scorched in one of those wars. I was born south of the Queich creek, which was the northern border of France until Waterloo. Then the border shifted a bit south to the next creek and that small territory got German. Thus a part of the Palatinate instead of the Alsace. Part of the Kingdom of Bavaria, to be exact, as Germany did not exist then. And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. But this is another story. And it is just as confusing as the history of the Alsace. Probably as confusing as the history of most European borders. Short: That problem is to big for just a few lines in an encyclopedia. There were so many shifts of the borders - I doubt the language of the common people changed fast enough to keep up that pace. What did happen was that the "official language" and the administration changed. No ruler (until '41) was dumb enough to enforce a language to the Alsatians. People in that area are rather stubborn (believe me, I'm local ). Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Don't forget that great Alsatian, Guy Sajer. I am sure his landmark work explains this sitution in full. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyewacket Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Hugenotten was a dirty word at first. They called themselfs 'Religion prétendue réformée' or 'calvinists' (from Johannes Calvin, one of the founders) or simple 'protestants'. Later they called themselves Hugenotten on their own. They were a minority in France (90 % catholic) and had to flee. around 40.000 (of 200.000) I think went to German countries (more or less 20.000 of them to Prussia). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vyrdolak Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Originally posted by Joachim: And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. I thought Maximilian of Bavaria was granted the Electorship of the Palatinate as a reward for staying loyal to the Emperor in the 30YW, when the hereditary Elector Frederick was put under the Imperial ban? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Zaraath: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim: And the ancestors of the Bavarian kings were in fact Counts of the Palatinate long before they inherited Bavaria. I thought Maximilian of Bavaria was granted the Electorship of the Palatinate as a reward for staying loyal to the Emperor in the 30YW, when the hereditary Elector Frederick was put under the Imperial ban? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Puppchen Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Only on the combat mission board would someone make a joke about Guy Sajer and the controversy about his wartime memoirs... who of course was supposedly a 16 year old Frenchman conscripted into the German army and fighting in the GD division from 1943-5... and expect people to pick up on it in the context of a thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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