Historically Responsible '39 Campaign

[Shaka of Carthage]

This, along with the House Rules below, is my attempt to make SC what I think it should be. Since Strategic Command HQ's seems to be on hold for the moment, if you are interested, I can e-mail you the campaign file and eventually a PDF document (House Rules and campaign changes).

If anyone is interested in a TCP or PBEM game, using the Historical Campaign and House Rules, contact me. My dance card is somewhat free at the moment.

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Limit House Rules

Unit Limits

Nation ......... Air* ..... Ground**

Germany ....... 4 .......... 35

Italy ............. 2 .......... 08

British ........... 2 ......... 12

French ........... 2 ......... 14

US ................ 2 ......... 16

Russia .......... 3 .......... 41

* Ground units are only Armies and Corps.

** Air units are only Air Fleets, not Strategic Bombers.

Standard Options except

Free French option OFF

UK 8th Army must be sent to Egypt on first Allied turn.

Weather

September to November (Fall, 7 turns)

December to February (Winter, 3 turns)

March to May (Spring, 7 turns)

June to August (Summer, 12 turns)

Air cannot be used during Winter.

No Amphib movement in Atlantic or Baltic during Winter or Fall.

Amphibious Movement

Corps unit only, range of four (4) from Port.

Note that normal transport movement is allowed, just from Port to Port.

DiploChits

Beginning of each year, Axis and Allied each gain one (1) chit.

DoW on Spain, Sweden or Turkey requires one (1) unopposed chit (simply notify your opponent and give them the chance to counter).

Forcing a DoW on one of those three requires three (3) unopposed chits.

Allied DoW on Ireland, Portugal or Low Countries gives the Axis one (1) chit.

Axis DoW on Vichy France or Switzerland gives the Allies one (1) chit.

Comments or suggestions are welcome.

[ September 27, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Great ideas and that catchy title is excellent!

I'd like to be your second opponent, tied up in other projects at the moment but I really like this concept and would enjoy giving it a shot.

That professor has been true to his word, I've been getting $5 every time anyone uses Historically Responsible. Hopefully your checks have been arriving as well.

[Shaka of Carthage]

THAT'S what those checks are for! I thought it was from my guest shots in certain blue light films.

[JerseyJohn]

Ah, the benefits of being multi-faceted!

[Iron Ranger]

????'s

Are the units totals including or excluding minors? If including then gemany would 'lose' 11 units to the Normal Minors and close to 10 more for Turkey and/or Spain if they joined (unlikly).

Amphibious Movement - Do you mean Seaborn Invasion? Or any Movement by sea?

Corps unit only, range of four (4) from Port.4 Hex

I assue this means that only Corps can land on enemy control soil and that it must be with in 4 hexs of a controled port.

I don't want to get into how this will effect air and rocket power. But doesn't this mean that once England is forced out of France, that the only area it can perform Operation Overlord is around the French/Bulgium Border (Por-Clasie ?) or the Coast of Norway? This will make the war in Egypt/Libia more interesting but it will make southern Eroupe indefenceable if Gabralter falls (your diplo chits make this unlikely!)

Just sitting here thinking -- I belive you would see a game where Germany would stand a low chance of winning (due primarly to low MPPs per turn and the UK carriers beating the shat out of the weak German air force) I haven't seen the map and any additional HRs.

It would be an interesting game. I see four primary paths:

1) Germany can't take France - Axis loss

2) UK use's the Spanish Gambit (no Dipo penitaly) - Axis loss

3) Germany go's historical - Russian play is poor - Axis win, play is good - Axis loss

4) Germany go's Navel - Draw

I like your ideas, funny how we all have a 'hot button'. I can't stand the ST, you can't stand the unlimited use of air power ect....

[Iron Ranger]

Double post

[ October 02, 2003, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

[Desert Dave]

Shaka,

Please send me your "historically responsible" campaign, and PDF if available.

A couple of things:

1) Forcing a DoW on Spain, Sweden or Turkey requires 3 unopposed chits... could you clarify this rule?

I read it to mean that if the Axis waits until 1941 (having saved their DCs: one each for '39, '40 and '41) then they CAN attack any of those three countries, EVEN IF the Allied player holds an equivalent # of diplo-chits?

2) Amphib movement using only Corps seems somewhat restrictive... presumably you have play tested this rule and are satisfied that D-Day landings can work without sailing Armies?

Also, I would suggest adding two more house rules to your campaign:

1) Some sort of Lend-Lease from USA to Britain (... using Zappsweden's most excellent suggestion of making a USA city and/or port and/or resource icon British). Or, do you suppose that this would give the Brits too many MPPs, thereby throwing the campaign out of kilter?

2) Bill Macon's inspired idea of LIMITING placement of chits in all Tech areas... to 2. This would remove SOME of the chance for one side gaining a quick advantage in critical areas, such as IT or Jets.

Anyway, I too would prefer some jake-brake on the tendencies for win-at-any-cost games to get out of "historical balance." Kudos to you for making, and advancing this Mod. :cool:

[ October 02, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Iron Ranger

Unit totals exclude minors.

Amphibious movement being defined as a transport unloading in a land hex that is not a port. Hence, during the winter months, units could move from the US to the UK, but no transports could attempt to unload in continental Europe from the Atlantic or Baltic.

You are right about what it means for Allied invasions of Europe. I'm not happy with the way it works, but after trying so many other variations, I don't see any other solution that isn't worse. It fixes the problems with amphib units in the Med, but leaves you with a very unsatisfactory solution for the Allied invasion of Europe. In effect, this is a good example of a realism approach while vanilla SC shows you the playability approach.

The general game flow is like this... Axis have the advantages until '41 or '42. Then the advantage shifts to the Allies. Hence Axis have to put down England and/or Russia, before '42. If they do that, then Axis can win. If they don't the Allies will slowly but surely overwhealm the Axis. Sound familar?

My hot button is the unlimited number of units. While the Air is the most obvious, I get just as upset when Germany has a line of units from sea to sea in the East and lines any amphib invasion spot with Corps in the West.

Really want to see me lose it? Get me in a first person or combat simulation where you control a person or squad. Between the weapons effect and the way the people react, I need some strong medication to calm me down about it not doing it the right way.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Immer Etwas

Campaign on the way, no PDF yet.

1) Forcing a DoW on Spain, Sweden or Turkey requires 3 unopposed chits... could you clarify this rule?

I read it to mean that if the Axis waits until 1941 (having saved their DCs: one each for '39, '40 and '41) then they CAN attack any of those three countries, EVEN IF the Allied player holds an equivalent # of diplo-chits?

No. You need three (3) more chits than the other side. And its not that you can attack those nations, rather the other side must DoW on that nation. It may work better if you only need two (2) more chits, but I haven't played it enough to be able to say so.

It may be easier to outline the flow...

1939... Axis has one chit, Allies have one chit. Axis declare intention to invade Sweden. Allies oppose it, which burns the chit. Axis now have zero (0) chits, Allies have zero (0) chits.

For the rest of '39, Spain, Sweden and Turkey cannot be DOW'd on, since neither side has a DiploChit.

If the Allies follow this approach, Spain, Sweden and Turkey will stay neutral, unless Spain is triggered by Sealion.

But assume Allies don't oppose the Swedish invasion. Axis have zero (0) chits, but the Allies now have one (1) chit. By itself, that one (1) chit isn't worth much. But if the Axis invade Vichy France, the Allies gain one (1) chit, giving them two (2) chits. We are now at a critical point.

Once the Axis gain a chit (Axis 1, Allies 3), they can now attempt to invade Spain if they want. Allies can say no, burning one (1) chit and still have two (2) chits. However the diplomatic option is there for them to not oppose it, saving that chit. The Axis burn thiers doing the invasion of Spain (Axis 0, Allies 3). Now the Allies have three (3) chits, to the Axis zero (0).

Allies can now dictate to the Axis, what turn the Axis must DoW Turkey. In effect, Turkey, seeing what has happened to Spain and Sweden, has declared for the Allies. After the Axis DoW on Turkey, Axis have zero (0) chits, Allies have zero (0) chits.

As you can see from the nations listed, you can invade anyone you want, but certain nations have a diplomatic cost, that if you do it enough, will cause one of the three (3) "major" minors to declare for the other side.

Does that help?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Immer Etwas

2) Amphib movement using only Corps seems somewhat restrictive... presumably you have play tested this rule and are satisfied that D-Day landings can work without sailing Armies?

Agree its restrictive. See my comments to Iron Ranger. And no, I'm not happy with it, more along the line of the lesser of two evils.

1) Some sort of Lend-Lease from USA to Britain (... using Zappsweden's most excellent suggestion of making a USA city and/or port and/or resource icon British). Or, do you suppose that this would give the Brits too many MPPs, thereby throwing the campaign out of kilter?

I've taken a different approach that I've been doing for many months now. Iraq starts as Axis, with no units. The UK has a understrength Corp in the Syrian/Jordan (?) area whose purpose is to occupy Iraq. In other words, the '41 pro-Axis coup in Iraq occurs in '39. This is where the UK gets its additional MPPs. More importantly, it makes the Middle East critical to the UK... something that should be defended.

2) Bill Macon's inspired idea of LIMITING placement of chits in all Tech areas... to 2. This would remove SOME of the chance for one side gaining a quick advantage in critical areas, such as IT or Jets.

Interesting idea I agree. I think this is something that two people playing against each other should consider and use if they feel Jets should never make an appearance until late war years. I've found, that with limited units, especially Air, the Germans having tech level 4 or 5 Jets isn't enough of an advantage, since they only have four (4) of those units. While the Allies may not be at that level, they still have more Air units than the Germans, and can gain air superiority somewhere. Even more so, if the Axis player neglects the Italian Air development. And while I am something of a historical purist, I still like the potential "what if" that allows one side or the other to have Jets in '42 or '43.

Thanks for the good words.

PS... might as well mention this here. The '39 Historically Responsible Campaign has certain changes. One of them being that the Allies don't have any carriers. Instead, they have a battleship unit, with one more experience bar, to represent the carrier. There are more naval units, tech levels have been tweaked, more HQ units and the Germans have more experience bars, along with selected Allied units.

[Blashy]

I've played the Fall Weiss revisisted campaing which has the actual OOB when the war started.

It makes for a much more enjoyable game and USA makes more sense when it starts.

BTW, I played it with no TECH vs. a friend of mine, only the current tech that is given from the start.

Blashy, the I hate tech in SC because it is "luck" based and takes away from this game being 100% strategical

[Desert Dave]

As orginally posted by Shaka of Carthage:

The '39 Historically Responsible Campaign has certain changes. One of them being that the Allies don't have any carriers.

True, except that the Brits still have that carrier in the Med.

I have not "crunched the numbers" nearly as intricately as you have, but... wouldn't this actually give the Allies an Air Fleet advantage of 8 to 6 (... given that France is out, USA is in and Italy finds the industrial wherewithall to actually build and deploy 2 AFs).

This seems too much of an advantage for the Allies, and I can foresee a situation (... given a very slight run of bad luck in Tech achievements for the Axis) where the tide will turn, even BEFORE the historical timeline?

Well, perhaps not, and only further beta-testing will tell the tale, true?

A couple of other comments:

1) I'm not keen on having Norway already German occupied in 1939.

Seems this would detract from some of the early strategic choices... does Germany try to sortie along the Norwegian west coast in order to land amphib units in Bergen (... thereby risking its' few Untersee and capital ships, which would require them to build more... to counter the Russian Navy once Barbarossa begins) and, do the Allies land there (as they did historically) and force Germany to deploy valuable units, to include a HQ if they intend quick success, in order to secure the entire country before turning toward... Drang Nacht Osten?

2) Iraq being Axis, without units, seems OK; after all, the Axis can contest this area following the prompt British take-over, but would be forced to spend additional MPPs in the Med Theatre, which is good because it forces... yet another strategic choice.

**I still like that Lend-Lease idea however (... adding roughly 1000 MPPs to Britains war-chest over the 2+ yrs until US entry) and I wonder if it couldn't be incorporated into your scenario somehow?

Perhaps you have fine-tuned this scenario to the extent that those Xtra 1000 MPPs would throw the whole campaign out of kilter, I don't know, and so, yet another instance where extended game-play would provide the answer, yes?

3) British sea power seems quite daunting in this scenario... given the limited Air Fleets. Seems as though the Allies could soon enough control the entire Baltic Sea... unless the Germans built more Strat Bombers, which is quite expensive... and to the point, would this SB counter-strategy break the German bank? To the extent that they couldn't maintain sufficient striking power on the East Front?

4) Diplo-chits is an inspired idea whose time has come ... at least, for those who wish a better and more historical outcome. Like you, I also wonder if 2 (rather than 3) DCs would be better for forcing a DoW?

All in all, a well-thought out "historical" campaign. :cool: I would add that Tech limitation though (... and here, I meant, and I believe Bill Macon meant to say... that you can only put two (2) chits in EACH area, NOT 2 chits total).