Experience questions

[BlueMax 1939]

1) manual says that max exp. attainable is 10 but i see only 4 medals representing exp. do these each represent 2.5 experience pts each?

2) also, i dont quite grasp what the manual says about gaining exp. it says that for an offensive a unit gains +.2 pts, +.5 for a attack victory ?!? (does this mean destroying unit, if so seems kind of abstract considering that for instance, an army could take out most of the strength of an oppsing army and then have a tank group come along and mop up the last say 1 st, pt. and get +.3 more exp pts.), and +.1 for defence.

3) does this literally mean pts gained? in my limited experience playing the game it seems like more than even +.5 is gained for a succesfull battle...i mean it would take a min of 17 turns for a unit to gain 10 exp and that would be getting attack victories EVERY turn and being attacked every opponents turn, not to mention NEVER recieving reinforcements, a very unlikely

situation indeed...

4) just my ponderings, sorry for the length and thanx for any responses...

[sogard]

"Michael Wittmann died as he had lived - brave, dashing and a living example to his grenadiers." - Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer

SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann

KIA: 8 August 1944

138 tank kills

132 other vehicles destroyed"

I read the above as a tag line and I have to wonder what in the hell this is all about. Michael Wittmann was a member of the SS. What sort of sick crap is this glorifying this sad bastard?

It was a good thing that Michael Wittmann was killed. He should have been killed earlier. Michael Wittmann was imbued with the Nazi garbage. It is very sad that anyone would use such a tag line quoting another Nazi bastard.

I really have to wonder if the writer of this knows anything about the history of WW II, what the Nazis were and what the SS was. I will simply chalk the tag line up to stupidity and ignorance since I am in a charitable mood. I know several WW II vets who would take great offence at this tag line, particularily since several of them lost friends ridding the planet of Michael Wittman and his ilk.

[ September 17, 2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[iolo]

Coming from a German/American background I had relatives fighting on both sides. Even a relative in the Pacific theatre. I respect all of them.

Michael Wittmann, as far as I know, was not charged as a war criminal. He was a soldier. And if the posted stats are true, a damn good one.

Calling SS soldiers 'sad bastards' and stating that it was 'a good thing' that he in particular died goes too far.

Just as it's unfair to blame all germans for the holocaust, I think it's ridiculous to wish death to all SS members, especially those who served in combat roles. A soldier is a soldier.

On a lighter note...

It was actually the Canadians that finally brought down this tank ace on August 8, 1944.

He fell while single-handedly taking on 5 shermans...

[sogard]

Originally posted by iolo:

Coming from a German/American background I had relatives fighting on both sides. Even a relative in the Pacific theatre. I respect all of them.

Michael Wittmann, as far as I know, was not charged as a war criminal. He was a soldier. And if the posted stats are true, a damn good one.

Calling SS soldiers 'sad bastards' and stating that it was 'a good thing' that he in particular died goes too far.

Just as it's unfair to blame all germans for the holocaust, I think it's ridiculous to wish death to all SS members, especially those who served in combat roles. A soldier is a soldier.

On a lighter note...

It was actually the Canadians that finally brought down this tank ace on August 8, 1944.

He fell while single-handedly taking on 5 shermans...

First, your argument is classic "everybody is the same" and no one is ever guilty or responsible. This is pure nonsense.

Second, you admit that you know nothing about the real Michael Wittman's wartime record. You rely on the silly notion that he was never charged with a warcrime. Well, thank goodness, Michael Wittman was killed in 1944 by people who were defending the very freedoms you enjoy. The Allied Tribunals at the end of the Second World War were not about indicting dead people. As such, Adolf Hitler was not indicted and tried because he was dead at the time of the Nuremburg trials.

I take it you are not aware of the dismal record of the SS, including the Waffen SS, in perpetrating war crimes in Poland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia and the former Soviet Union. Recent research, well documented by those who WANT to look, demonstrates that most soldiers who fought on the eastern front at least knew about the killings going on even if they did not participate in the atrocities. Michael Wittman fought for several years on the Eastern Front. How do we know this? Because historians have been reviewing the photographs many of them sent home. They are filled with images of civilian death.

Finally, the "Just as it's unfair to blame all germans for the holocaust, I think it's ridiculous to wish death to all SS members, especially those who served in combat roles. A soldier is a soldier." is simply wrong. What do you think the SS was? What did they represent? Your view whitewashes history. It is a view which is even not accepted in Germany today. Fortunately, modern Germany has made an honest attempt to come to terms with its Nazi past.

We do our German friends nor ourselves a favor by making the past nicer. Your German relatives in the German Army fought for a thoroughly despicable cause. It was the most dangerous threat to Western Civilization that we have seen in the modern era. It would be a terrible thing to ignore this fact. I hope you reconsider your viewpoint and not let the millions of deaths caused by the Third Reich go unremembered.

Once again, I will be charitable and say that I am sure that your comments are a result more of ignornace rather than malice or intent.

[ September 17, 2002, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[Edwin]

"Michael Wittmann died as he had lived - brave, dashing and a living example to his

grenadiers." - Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer

True praise indeed. Coming from one of the finest battlefield commanders of WWII, the youngest Divisional General of the German army - only exceeded, I would say, by Paul Hausser, a commander of real distinction.

It makes no difference what country the soldier is from. Soldiering as a profession is about eliminating the opposition and the more skilled you become the greater the respect.

Of the many British soldiers I have known only those who spent considereable time in a Japanese prisoner of war camp would adopt the attitude of the second writer.

I did not want to get into this, we should just be enjoying the game. However, the rubbishing of heroic men by people who apparently have no idea what grit it takes to hold a line deserves comment.

[DK_Faramir]

sogard

Why don't you tell us what this guy did ?

No one here is making light of the crimes committed during WW2, but we must recognise the distinction between soldiery and purposely harming innocents.

To be a member of the SS meant that you were an elite soldier, considered a great honor by most german soldiers. That horrible things were done by members of the SS, were mostly the result of orders and policies practised in Germany at the time. You can't fault a soldier for following orders, when the alternative is getting shot. Yes, I understand that there were genuinely terrible people in the SS (Himmler was their Reichsführer), but to claim they all were like that is ignorant.

If you really think that everyone in the SS were evil and deserved death, then you're being extremely harsh and shortsighted. There is no way to divide the world into black & white, however convenient it seems to you.

Come up with some facts about this individual, before you attack people for honoring his bravery as a soldier, which is apparently all we know of him.

- Faramir

[ September 17, 2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: DK_Faramir ]

[sogard]

Your a complete idiot Edwin and you don't know what you are talking about. The finest German fighting general of the Second World War was Erwin Rommel. The fact that by the end of the war, the German officer corps was thoroughly Nazified and knew what it was doing along with many of the lower ranks is well documented.

Source: A WAR TO BE WON: FIGHTING THE SECOND WORLD WAR by Williamson Murray and Allan R. Millett (Harvard University Press: 2000).

Murray and Millett are the two most distinguished military historians in the United States today. Millet is Chairman of the Military History Department of the Ohio State University.

The notion that you advance that all soldiers are the same is conemptable although Dr. Goebbels would approve. The record of the German Army in the Second World War is what it is. You can not white wash it and you should be ashamed if you try.

[sogard]

All I can tell you Mr. Faramir is just go out and read the recent major histories of the Second World War. The Murray and the Millett book is a good start; but, you can find this information rather easily if you do. I would suggest that you start with the more recent histories because they have the greatest range of source material. Interestingly enough, this is even true if you are German and reading German materials. There have been many recent discussions, debates, and forums on war guilt.

The idea that the SS (including the Waffen SS) were just a group of elite professional soldiers won't wash. It is Nazi apologia at its worst and ought to be pointed out any time this canard is made.

This point was made even more clear when President Reagan spoke in the late 1980s at the German military cemetary at Bitbourg where there were SS graves at the cemetary. Reagan's speech was condemned at the time and the judgment of historians (at least in the United States) since then is that this was a mistake because it does not set the historical record straight.

We owe it to the past to tell our history accurately whether we like the story or not.

[ September 17, 2002, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[Morten Kay]

I propose that you all get back to buisness and discuss SC. I dont think any of you will ever agree on the other topic .

/Morten

[sogard]

How would you know? Are you disputing what the historical record is? Do you find these facts inconvenient or unpleasant? Nothing like blaming the victim for the crime.

[Briggs]

This stupid **** was originally posted by sogard:

.Blah blah blah I'm an angry old fool. Don't listen to my ramblings.

Gee, nothing says, "Misguided, over-patriotic American," like that drivel that you somehow manufactured inside your tiny mind. You have some serious issues that need dealing with. First off, try containing your sad, pathetic hypocracy.

So, you're a lawyer, are you? Well guess what? All lawyers get baby murderers and child molesters and mass murderers off death row for some lame ass exscuse like "So and so was insane." You -being a lawey and all- automatically fall into this category. As we all well know, everyone in the SS was a mass murderer, just like every lawyer is a lying, theiving, life shattering **** bag.

This lumping people into categories can fly both ways, you little imp. You talk of being "In a charitable mood." What would you do if you were in a bad mood? Sue for 20 million dollars?

You know, at first I had a small feeling that you *MIGHT* have some sort of historical knowledge. This statement: "Your German relatives in the German Army fought for a thoroughly despicable cause. It was the most dangerous threat to Western Civilization that we have seen in the modern era." proves to me you wouldn't know your ass from that hole in your head that your tiny brain obviously leaked out of. The USSR and Stalin posed the greatest threat to Western Civilization, you ignoramous. If you would read some history and research NOT written in America I think you'll find a rather different picture on the history of the world.

You know, you could really do with a nice long game of hide-and-go-****-yourself. While you're at it, feel free to hide in the corner and get in touch with your inner adult. If there is one below that raptillian skin of yours.

[Briggs]

Originally posted by sogard:

How would you know? Are you disputing what the historical record is? Do you find these facts inconvenient or unpleasant? Nothing like blaming the victim for the crime.

Well, how do YOU know? Are you all of a sudden the king of history? Do you know everything? Apparently your much over-sized ego would lead you to believe so. It's rather unfortunate you don't have any large holding tank of smarts to back up that titanicly disproportional ego of yours.

[Morten Kay]

Originally posted by sogard:

How would you know? Are you disputing what the historical record is? Do you find these facts inconvenient or unpleasant? Nothing like blaming the victim for the crime.

I wouldn't _know_! And i am not disputing anything. And yes i find the facts of WW2 very unpleasant and sometimes even inconvenient (to playing SC...) And i am not blaming any one. But now i am asking you to take your "discussion" to another forum.

I would like to hear more about xp and SC?

/Morten

[sogard]

Panzer Lehr writes:

"Well, how do YOU know? Are you all of a sudden the king of history?"

I have read some history. I have cited sources. Apparantly you don't read. Where do you get your information. If you have a source which contradicts what I have written, then cite it. If not, I know what your silence represents.

"Do you know everything? Apparently your much over-sized ego would lead you to believe so. It's rather unfortunate you don't have any large holding tank of smarts to back up that titanicly disproportional ego of yours."

This sort of personal attack is so childish. If you disagree with my views and/or sources, then cite some. Are you saying that you "know everything?" The person who seems to have the large ego here is the one making the personal attack and not backing it up with any facts.

History is what it is. You can not make it up if the reader takes the time and looks at the historic record and it seems you just want to make it up as you go along. Kinda hard to do when the Second World War is one of the more documented and studied periods in human history. But, you may be at a disadvantage, you may not read. If so, I suggest you take a course, contact you local elementary school.

[Briggs]

Usualy, I'm not one to go for personal attacks and mud slinging, but since it seems as though you want to heap all your mud onto everyone who ever wore a uniform with a Swastika on it (Both dead and alive) I figured I may as well sling some of mine over your way. The really childish thing here is to call the German soldiers "Sad Bastards." Not to mention you called BlueMax stupid and ignorant (However indirectly is not up for debate).

Also, I'd like to point out that most of Wittmann's kills came on the Eastern front. Your statement that the people trying to kill Wittmann were defending democracy or some rediculous line like that. Wittmann did just as much to save Democracy as any American tanker by killing SOVIETS.

And don't even get me started on war crimes. Let's go through a few, shall we?

DRESDEN.

TOKYO.

HIROSHIMA.

MUNICH.

I think that just about covers it. Take your one-sided view and leave.

[sogard]

Morton Kay writes:

"But now i am asking you to take your "discussion" to another forum."

And, I will discuss any aspect of STRATEGIC COMMAND and the discussion about the game (including correcting the historical record) that I wish. You may skip over any of my posts which you may find inconvenient or unpleasant.

I give you permission to ignore them if that makes you feel better. But, free speech is a funny thing. We don't have to like what the other guy is saying; but, we ought to not only tolerate it. We should protect it. Or, maybe this is only an American idea. But then, we had to cross the Atlantic to insure that when you were born in 1976, you were born into a free Denmark and not part of the German Reich where you could look forward to a lifetime of forced labor. Of course, we could have been wrong about that I suppose.

[DK_Faramir]

sogard

You started the personal attacks by calling Edwin a complete idiot, so it might not be the wisest choice to point out how childish it is.

Anyway, you're the one to claim you have the facts about Michael Wittmann, which leads you to conclude that he deserved death and that he was basically evil.

Instead of suggesting books for us to read, which is another childish tactic, why don't you just explain to us what he did that was so bad.

To claim you've read a book which says all members of the SS were evil, is great, but to be unable to point out how or why is pretty unimpressive.

Explain to us, exactly why Michael Wittmann deserved death.

- Faramir

[ September 17, 2002, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: DK_Faramir ]

[sogard]

The so-called Panzer Lehr writes:

"Also, I'd like to point out that most of Wittmann's kills came on the Eastern front. Your statement that the people trying to kill Wittmann were defending democracy or some rediculous line like that. Wittmann did just as much to save Democracy as any American tanker by killing SOVIETS."

All I can say to that garbage is thank god for the Red Army. We, in the West, owe much to the Red Army for winning World War II. It was Nazi Germany which was the real threat not Soviet Russia (which was not a nice place either; but they never really threatened us like the Nazis).

"And don't even get me started on war crimes. Let's go through a few, shall we?

DRESDEN.

TOKYO.

HIROSHIMA.

MUNICH."

War is not pleasant. War is hell; but, the United States, with all its faults, is not about rewriting history because we found out that we fought for the wrong side. Your point is complete rubbish.

Finally, Panzer Lehr wrote:

"I think that just about covers it. Take your one-sided view and leave."

Nope, you can leave if you like; but, I am going to tell the truth about your nonsense as long as you post it. Your views are so extreme and out of whack with history that it would be wrong to let them go unanswered.

[ September 17, 2002, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[Briggs]

Originally posted by sogard:

But then, we had to cross the Atlantic to insure that when you were born in 1976, you were born into a free Denmark and not part of the German Reich where you could look forward to a lifetime of forced labor.

Oh please. Here you go again with your stupid garbage. You have no realistic backing to this statement. Everything you have said here has all been unfounded, unbacked inflamatory garbage.

[sogard]

So I take it that Panzer Lehr is saying that Denmark was not liberated by the Western Allies in 1945? That the period 1940 - 1945 was just a bad dream?

Facts can just be so damned inconvenient.

[Briggs]

WHAT?! You call yourself a learned individual and you can conciously brush asside the threat of the Soviet Union to Western Democracy. You must pick your reading on how much play time the US gets.

All you have to do is look at a map regarding the troop positions during the first days of Barbarossa. A good portion of Red Army units were in forward positions. Supply dumps were very close to the units. What does this mean? Attack posture. A defensive posture is in-depth, with supply dumps far back.

Even looking at Red Army hardware, one can discern a rather "Offensive" posture to it. The planes, for instance: Most of them had fuel-efficient engines and low top speed, but had massive wing surface (In ratio to the size of the plane) and srurdy landing gear. I'm assuming you know little to nothing about aeronautics (Like everything else) so let me lay it out for you real simple-like. Large ammounts of wing surface means high manuverability, low stall speeds and good lift. These are qualities that are signature of ground attack aircraft. Aircraft with rugged landing gear with simple easy to service designs mean that they are intended to be used on airbases consiting of little more than dirt of mowed grass. These types of airbases are the kinds you see springing up in the wake of an advancing army.

Even the main tank (T-34) was offensively minded.

If you read deep enough, you'll see that Stalin had his eyes on Western Europe, Asia and anywhere else he could get his wretched pawn on. Can you even begin to immagine the rammifications of world wide "Communism"? It would mean a total economical collapse, for starters.

I hate to say it, but Barbarossa and the Germans probably saved Europe from the USSR.

[Briggs]

Originally posted by sogard:

So I take it that Panzer Lehr is saying that Denmark was not liberated by the Western Allies in 1945? That the period 1940 - 1945 was just a bad dream?

Facts can just be so damned inconvenient.

I suppose you're saying that everyone in Denmark was a slave labourer during that period.

Generalization can be so damned inconvenient.

[Edwin]

Well Sogard we agree on one thing; that Rommel was one of the best.

As usual you keep making these generalised statements about atrocities. I fully support the execution of anyone found guilty of war crimes. However, you have not provided any reference to the war crimes of the discussed persons. I am not personally aware of any but I am aware of their prowess on the battlefield

hey, lets talk about those butchering, murderous, raping and stealing allied soldiers - why were they not tried and executed at Nuremburg! Surely your not ignorant enough to think it did not happen, IT DID. However, we won the war so why punish our people. Following your logic that all SS are murdering dogs because some were, then all allied soldiers are the same - explain your logic.

I realise that allied atrocities were on a minute scale compared to German atrocities but we are only talking about some front line soldiers - not the ones who spent their time clearing the ghettos

War is not clean and tidy it is hell and in the heat of battle many actions that would be seen as crimes when examined at a later date, happen. Vietnam is probably the best example of that - and those guys coming home were treated like crap, I bet you were or would have been one of those air heads jeering them off the planes.

Finally, when the bombs start dropping, the enemy attacks, you are hugely outnumbered and stuck in hand to hand fighting, you are totally alone - to hold fast, survive and do it all again tomorrow is TRUE GRIT - This is taken from a guy I knew who took a little walk in the bright italian sun (he thought Cassino was his worst battle - don't read books, speak to those who were there.

[Morten Kay]

Well now you managed to piss me off to sogard.

I _asked_ you to take this discussion else where, I did not in anyway try to take your "free speech" from you. I might even say: "We don't have to like what the other guy is saying; but, we ought to not only tolerate it. We should protect it" (But to have it work only one way must be an American idea?)

And now for what seems to be the turning point of this discussion: “History is what it is. You can not make it up if the reader takes the time and looks at the historic record”.

I am a student of medieval history and not of WW2 history, but one thing that all history has in common is that history is NOT what it is. And most of it you do make up, to suit your view of the world. It is the belief that there is one truths and that you know it that lead to fanaticism.

/Morten

[DK_Faramir]

I appreciate that Denmark was 'liberated', but I see it as a natural consequence of defeating Germany and its allies.

Denmark actually cooperated (though reluctantly) with Germany, because our military strength was laughable. So I doubt my future would have been forced labor, seeing as how I fit in pretty well with the, at the time, german concept of a pure species.

But looking back now, I'm pretty grateful for Hitler's demise. You can be damn sure, though, that I don't feel any obligation to your person, just because you happen to live in the same country as those brave soldiers who fought for their cause.

- Faramir

[ September 17, 2002, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: DK_Faramir ]