Another SC 2 Fix - Dutch Gambit

[Jollyguy]

All this Dutch Gambit stuff is too ahistorical.

Right now, between two good players, the Dutch Gambit is almost an act of desperation for the Allies, because he knows there's almost no chance of winning otherwise. If is succeeds, he's got a chance. If it fails, which it usually does between good players, then Allied readiness is set back, and it's almost a certain Axis victory.

What happens now even without a Dutch Gambit, is the Axis player must prepare for it. So you end up with a large number of Axis troops operated to the border of the Low Countries every time by turn two or three, which means the Low Countries get hit early regardless. If the Dutch Gambit wasn't done by the Allied player, the result is the premature conquest of France almost every time, which means the Brits can't reinforce both Egypt and the Home Islands, which means the Axis ends up with an even more certain victory. I for one now ALWAYS operate the cream of my German units west on turn two, because I have to in order to defend against the Dutch Gambit, and because it's also the best strategy available whether the Dutch Gambit was done or not.

For SC 2 I would propose the Allies cannot attack the Low Countries, period, and the cost to operate land units is three times what it is now, air units twice. That would be a fair exchange, as the Axis player would only be able to operate a few units over, which wouldn't be enough to take the Low Countries early, so he probably wouldn't do it. You would get a more historical conquest of France. This would also assist in small measure to correct the overall Axis imbalance, by chewing up a few more turns for the Axis.

Over time the cost to operate could do down somewhat, but not to what it is now, representative of improvements in transportation systems and methods.

[jon_j_rambo]

Jolly --- Here's how to fix all the crying about play balance in SC. It's just like the "Civil War" board game or Axis/Allies board game: YOU BID FOR SIDES.

Example:

I'll take Germans minus $200.

Next player says: I'll take Germans minus $250

Rebuked: I'll take Germans minus $300

etc.

The Allies get that money & can do as they wish with it. That simple. Just add it to the software. You bid when you get online.

Rambo >>>>>> You got questions, I've got answers.

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Jollyguy:

For SC 2 I would propose the Allies cannot attack the Low Countries, period, and the cost to operate land units is three times what it is now, air units twice..........

Could this be a patch/fix for our present SC?

Hubert, what do you think?

Sincerely,

Ken

[John DiFool]

Tie in operational movement with distance somehow,

and there ya go...

And there should be a Low Countries variant in

SC2 (as a pre-game option)-about 10% of the time

the LC will join the Allies in the very early

going. Variants such as this will prevent all

the "Perfect Plans" we keep hearing about here...

John DiFool

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Jolly --- Here's how to fix all the crying about play balance in SC:YOU BID FOR SIDES.

There you go. Where do we sign up?

Ken

[Jollyguy]

However, I just remembered something.

For those who have been playing SC awhile, you may remember the "Iolo" Allied defense. He would sell the British bomber, all of the French fleet, and some of the British navy. He would buy various other units, move the French Med units to France (not caring about the increase Italian readiness), and do a full defense of France.

The best way around that as the Axis was to operate units West fast, before he had time to set his defense. As a result, this Allied strategy fell by the wayside.

So, if we only fixed the Dutch Gambit in isolation, the "Iolo" Allied defense would spring back up, as the Allies would be able to disband certain units and set their defense, before the Axis could get units West.

That means there would need to be restrictions on disbanding units initially, or the $$ derived from doing so would need to be drastically reduced, or maybe disbanding large capital ships and airfleets would just be prohibited. One of the reasons raised against doing so was it wasn't realistic to cash in these expensive units that took years to field, and convert them to $$ (and other units), in a matter of weeks.

[J P Wagner]

Of course if SC2 is set in the Pacific then it's a waste of time worrying about the Dutch Gambit. Any news on that front from Hubert?... However, I don't like the idea of preventing an aspect of the game from occuring just because it seems a bit ahistorical. Why not prevent attacking Spain, Turkey, and Sweden while you are at it?

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I agree, if you don't like the Dutch Gambit how about a game of Steel Panthers?

[Friedrich_der_2]

I think the game becomes more interesting through such possibilities like the Dutch gambit. I would like to see more freedom for the player in this game like the possibility to invade Italy as Germany. Which happen really later in WW2.

But ahistoric situation should cause some disadvantage for the attacking country. But the war readiness alone is perhaps not the right punishment.

Sven

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Jolly --- Here's how to fix all the crying about play balance in SC. It's just like the "Civil War" board game or Axis/Allies board game: YOU BID FOR SIDES.

Example:

I'll take Germans minus $200.

Next player says: I'll take Germans minus $250

Rebuked: I'll take Germans minus $300

etc.

The Allies get that money & can do as they wish with it. That simple. Just add it to the software. You bid when you get online.

Rambo >>>>>> You got questions, I've got answers.

ONe of the smartest things i've heard u say GODD idea!

[KG]

Why not bid with Corps and Armies. Each side bids for the Germans, offering up 1 or 2 corps or armies, or both (maybe even a tank or HQ). Then do a transport, send to Ireland, allow Allied ships to destroy the transport. Game is equalized. This would work with the current patch.

[GroupNorth]

The Dutch Gambit is an interesting strategy, if you don't think this is a World War II game. But if you want at least some basic values from World War II, you'd remember the English jumped in because they guaranteed the territorial integrity of Poland & Belgium.

An Allied attack on Spain is something else entirely. We could assume Franco the Fascist began making more and more public announcements about how great the Axis was. After all, he was tipping close to joining up. Of course, common sense luckily took over.

[BriantheWise]

I like! the dutch gambit. It's fun, and I don't think it's ahistorical, either.

If the French have time to get a good defense set up, it's not really a game winner, but it sure gives the Germans a punch in the nose.

As far as history, try pretending it this way: The Lowlands, France and England all remember what happened in WWI. They've seen what Germany did in the East with Chech and Poland, so the Lowlands invite the French and Britain to help defend them. We just don't have a model for it in this game (Clash of Steel did, but that's another thread). I don't think it's all that farfetched.

Just my opinion