CMplayer Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I've noticed that Bazooka and Schreck teams tend to start firing at the extreme limits of their effective range. In this way they reveal their position, and use up their ammo, before having a decent chance of a hit. They get jittery, which is probably pretty realistic. A solution to this, which I have read here and used, is to employ the ambush command. But what if the enemy vehicles might show up at several points? If the team is disciplined enough to wait till the target reaches an ambush point, 120 meters from its position, then shouldn't it be disciplined enough to understand an order to engage any enemy AFV that comes within a specified range from any direction? One way to work this would be to allow units to target multiple ambush markers. This would be a great addition to the game, IMO. In effect, this would be a SOP order of the sort you see in TACops, but it would be achieved within the command structure of CM. To tell them not to engage armor at greater than 150 meters, you put out a few ambush markers, on all the likely approach routes, and target the lot. (of course inexperienced units might still screw it up, but that's just one of the fine things about this game) Or are there other workarounds to get the same effect? regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 No workarounds that I know of PLayer. You have a good point. Several times people including myself have asked for SOPs ala TacOps, but I don't think this is in store. Or is it? IMO the TacAI would be greatly helped if SOPs were available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bredberg Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 That would be a really good add to CM2. The ambush/return fire stuff is not very good in CM. Why does tanks engage a rifle squad when a decent tank is close by - even if the tank was given as a first priority target? As a tanker I would always go for the heaviest armored stuff first - even if I'm a newbie. As for the ambush: Similar to SP, it should be possible to set a maximum range of fire. Agreeable this would be more strictly kept by the veteran-team, but even the most nervous green ones would probably hold their fire a bit more. Also in ambush-mode the troopers should be rather difficult to spot, however I guess this is already implemented??? Also in ambush-mode troopers don't necessarily return fire, since in real life, the other side might just spraying the area - since it would be such a good ambush site... /Jonas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Whats a SOP??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Standard Operating Procedure. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Its extremely difficult to use AT teams with great success. Unless the enemy comes to you, you don't have much of a chance. The Tac AI also spots the AT teams with great ease, somehow picking them out of the chaos. ------------------ The only enemy I fear is nature. -Napoleon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I've always felt that SOPs would solve a lot of the niggling complaints people (myself included) have about the TacAI. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 23, 2001 Author Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Vanir: I've always felt that SOPs would solve a lot of the niggling complaints people (myself included) have about the TacAI. Maybe they are afraid of scaring off customers if the interface becomes too complicated. But players would always have the option of leaving the SOP fields on their 'default' settings, in which case it would play just like it already does. --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annalist Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 A good idea for all units. Take the way Close Combat does it. You can set any unit to ambush mode. You select a 45 degree arc of the 360 degree circle around the unit. The engage distance is part of the programming and depends on unit type and their chance to damage the enemy. So if an infantry unit sets an ambush covering an open field and an enemy infantry unit runs into they'll open fire at greater range. If a tank comes into the ambush zone, they won't attack until threatened by overrun or when their rifle grenades and such have a chance to knock out the vehicle (i.e. rear flanks/rear). In Close Combat and AT team will fire at range if they have a good chance of a kill. If not, they hold fire until the unit gets closer (due to the fact that kill percentage is inversely proportional to distance from target). This would be a good way to handle it in CM too, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annalist Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Another problem with AT teams is that they use their AT weapons on infantry units. Now realistically, shaped HEAT charges are NOT effective against infantry unless it hits someone specifically. They are not area effect weapons like grenades. Now, I can see using them against bunkers and such, but the AI should not have AT teams fire at infantry with their primary weapons. The gunner carries a side arm the loader carries a carbine (usually), they should use those weapons if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Napoleon1944: Its extremely difficult to use AT teams with great success. Yes, I do a poorer job at this than I like. Is there a good tutorial, AAR, or thread that others have found especially helpful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Annalist: Another problem with AT teams is that they use their AT weapons on infantry units. Now realistically, shaped HEAT charges are NOT effective against infantry unless it hits someone specifically. They are not area effect weapons like grenades. PIATs were used as mortars in lieu of the ineffective 2" mortar by UK squads (source 'The recollections of Rifleman Bowlby' by Alex Bowlby), and Panzerfausts apparently had AP covers to put over them that would create a shrapnel effect on impact (Source: M.Hofbauer's excellent German AT-weapons site, IIRC). As for not being successful with them - I have had great success with PIATs, Schrecks and Zooks. Mostly against people who think they can just motor through the country-side with no cover (no names, you know who you are). I had a PIAT kill a Tiger at 180m once. It is the way you use them. If your opponent uses good combined arms tactics you are not likely to be successful, but that's life (or the end of it). PIATs were supposed to be used by the suicidally inclined. Fausts also were one-shot weapons in the sense that the guy firing would not fire again if he missed. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I find the Ambush command to be nearly worthless, because of its limitations. I want my HQ behind the men where it will be safe, which usually means it doesn't have LOS to the ambush point. The real ambush command in CM is Hide. Set your zooks/shrecks to Hide, and they will conveniently come out of Hiding at the range where they have a good chance of killing. Infantry work well that way, too. In fact, I routinely Hide nearly every unit when I defend, because otherwise they open fire and give away their position at ridiculously long ranges. I suggested an improvement along these lines in another thread, proposing an Aggression Setting that would work something like the engagement range setting in Steel Panthers. My proposal was roundly criticized on the theory that any extra command options added to CM would give the player too much control over the units. Of course, giving the player extra commands has nothing to do with whether the soliders will follow those commands, but no one responding to my thread seemed to understand that. Maybe more people would have liked it if I had called it SOP instead of Aggression Level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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