AT team ambushing range

[CMplayer]

I've noticed that Bazooka and

Schreck teams tend to start firing

at the extreme limits of their

effective range. In this way they

reveal their position, and use

up their ammo, before having a decent

chance of a hit. They get jittery,

which is probably pretty realistic.

A solution to this, which I have read

here and used, is to employ the ambush

command.

But what if the enemy vehicles might

show up at several points? If the

team is disciplined enough to wait

till the target reaches an ambush

point, 120 meters from its position,

then shouldn't it be disciplined

enough to understand an order to

engage any enemy AFV that comes

within a specified range from any

direction?

One way to work this would be to allow

units to target multiple ambush markers.

This would be a great addition to the game,

IMO.

In effect, this would be a SOP order

of the sort you see in TACops, but it

would be achieved within the command

structure of CM. To tell them not to

engage armor at greater than 150 meters,

you put out a few ambush markers, on

all the likely approach routes, and

target the lot. (of course inexperienced

units might still screw it up, but

that's just one of the fine things about

this game)

Or are there other workarounds to get

the same effect?

regards,

--Rett

[coralsaw]

No workarounds that I know of PLayer.

You have a good point. Several times people including myself have asked for SOPs ala TacOps, but I don't think this is in store.

Or is it?

IMO the TacAI would be greatly helped if SOPs were available.

[bredberg]

That would be a really good add to CM2.

The ambush/return fire stuff is not very good in CM.

Why does tanks engage a rifle squad when a decent tank is close by - even if the tank was given as a first priority target? As a tanker I would always go for the heaviest armored stuff first - even if I'm a newbie.

As for the ambush:

Similar to SP, it should be possible to set a maximum range of fire. Agreeable this would be more strictly kept by the veteran-team, but even the most nervous green ones would probably hold their fire a bit more.

Also in ambush-mode the troopers should be rather difficult to spot, however I guess this is already implemented???

Also in ambush-mode troopers don't necessarily return fire, since in real life, the other side might just spraying the area - since it would be such a good ambush site...

/Jonas

[Lordfluffers]

Whats a SOP???

[Chupacabra]

Standard Operating Procedure.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Guest Napoleon1944]

Its extremely difficult to use AT teams with great success. Unless the enemy comes to you, you don't have much of a chance. The Tac AI also spots the AT teams with great ease, somehow picking them out of the chaos.

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The only enemy I fear is nature.

-Napoleon

[Vanir]

I've always felt that SOPs would solve a lot of the niggling complaints people (myself included) have about the TacAI.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Vanir:

I've always felt that SOPs would solve a lot of the niggling complaints people (myself included) have about the TacAI.

Maybe they are afraid of scaring off

customers if the interface becomes too

complicated. But players would always have

the option of leaving the SOP fields on

their 'default' settings, in which case

it would play just like it already does.

--Rett

[Annalist]

A good idea for all units. Take the way Close Combat does it. You can set any unit to ambush mode. You select a 45 degree arc of the 360 degree circle around the unit. The engage distance is part of the programming and depends on unit type and their chance to damage the enemy. So if an infantry unit sets an ambush covering an open field and an enemy infantry unit runs into they'll open fire at greater range. If a tank comes into the ambush zone, they won't attack until threatened by overrun or when their rifle grenades and such have a chance to knock out the vehicle (i.e. rear flanks/rear). In Close Combat and AT team will fire at range if they have a good chance of a kill. If not, they hold fire until the unit gets closer (due to the fact that kill percentage is inversely proportional to distance from target). This would be a good way to handle it in CM too, IMHO.

[Annalist]

Another problem with AT teams is that they use their AT weapons on infantry units. Now realistically, shaped HEAT charges are NOT effective against infantry unless it hits someone specifically. They are not area effect weapons like grenades. Now, I can see using them against bunkers and such, but the AI should not have AT teams fire at infantry with their primary weapons. The gunner carries a side arm the loader carries a carbine (usually), they should use those weapons if necessary.

[Guest AbnAirCav]

Originally posted by Napoleon1944:

Its extremely difficult to use AT teams with great success.

Yes, I do a poorer job at this than I like. Is there a good tutorial, AAR, or thread that others have found especially helpful?

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Annalist:

Another problem with AT teams is that they use their AT weapons on infantry units. Now realistically, shaped HEAT charges are NOT effective against infantry unless it hits someone specifically. They are not area effect weapons like grenades.

PIATs were used as mortars in lieu of the ineffective 2" mortar by UK squads (source 'The recollections of Rifleman Bowlby' by Alex Bowlby), and Panzerfausts apparently had AP covers to put over them that would create a shrapnel effect on impact (Source: M.Hofbauer's excellent German AT-weapons site, IIRC).

As for not being successful with them - I have had great success with PIATs, Schrecks and Zooks. Mostly against people who think they can just motor through the country-side with no cover (no names, you know who you are). I had a PIAT kill a Tiger at 180m once. It is the way you use them. If your opponent uses good combined arms tactics you are not likely to be successful, but that's life (or the end of it). PIATs were supposed to be used by the suicidally inclined. Fausts also were one-shot weapons in the sense that the guy firing would not fire again if he missed.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Leonidas]

I find the Ambush command to be nearly worthless, because of its limitations. I want my HQ behind the men where it will be safe, which usually means it doesn't have LOS to the ambush point.

The real ambush command in CM is Hide. Set your zooks/shrecks to Hide, and they will conveniently come out of Hiding at the range where they have a good chance of killing. Infantry work well that way, too. In fact, I routinely Hide nearly every unit when I defend, because otherwise they open fire and give away their position at ridiculously long ranges.

I suggested an improvement along these lines in another thread, proposing an Aggression Setting that would work something like the engagement range setting in Steel Panthers. My proposal was roundly criticized on the theory that any extra command options added to CM would give the player too much control over the units. Of course, giving the player extra commands has nothing to do with whether the soliders will follow those commands, but no one responding to my thread seemed to understand that. Maybe more people would have liked it if I had called it SOP instead of Aggression Level.