Why no Commonwealth snipers in CM?

[M. Bates]

If there are "novelty" units like Jagdtigers and Super Pershings, I think that there should be trained snipers.

The Commonwealth forces for certain ran sniper courses during WW2 close to the front.

I would propose a unit similar to the Sharpshooter, but as a 2 man team. The second man would have binoculars, and since the second man is a trained sniper, there could be a possibility of him using the sniper rifle when the team sustains a casualty.

[This message has been edited by M. Bates (edited 01-07-2001).]

[M. Bates]

bump

[Jarmo]

I was under impression the "real" snipers operated between battles,

when nobody was expecting to be shot at. Not during fierce firefights.

[David Aitken]

Exactly. When there's a lot of lead pinging around, a sniper is not going to be presented with a lot of targets. Everyone will already be keeping their heads down.

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Exactly. When there's a lot of lead pinging around, a sniper is not going to be presented with a lot of targets. Everyone will already be keeping their heads down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely the opposite is true: when enemy "Spandaus" and rifemen are firing, they will be visible.

When the situation is more static then hides could be constructed. Of course, in Defense games, this is especially true.

I find the current situation of Sharpshooters to be strange. Would the British Army or any other army really hand out telescopic sights willy nilly for soldiers to go and do their own thing?

The most sensible wayto judge if a soldier is capable of consistently firing close groupings at long range, AND to make sure that he knows how to use a TS properly, is to put that soldier on a proper snipers course for a week or so.

[Maximus]

Maybe because UK snipers couldn't hit the continent of Europe when standing in France.

[M. Bates]

Okay Maximus, I'll print my signature just for you

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[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I find the current situation of Sharpshooters to be strange. Would the British Army or any other army really hand out telescopic sights willy nilly for soldiers to go and do their own thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite willy-nilly. For the most part, they had qualified as sharpshooters or marksmen in basic. And there were enough of them that the TO&E in the American army called for one or two in every infantry company. I suspect that there weren't that many actually on the ground, but the provision was made.

I think the German army had them in about the same proportion. Don't know about the Brits/Commonwealth.

Michael

[M. Bates]

I'll do more reading on the subject, but so far as my limited knowledge goes, the situation of Sharpshooters in the British Army is not correct.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I'll do more reading on the subject, but so far as my limited knowledge goes, the situation of Sharpshooters in the British Army is not correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think a lot of people have seen pictures of Commonwealth 2-man sniper teams suggesting that they did indeed exist. What would be interesting is if somebody could dig out a field manual and/or combat reports, vet accounts etc. to further elucidate how they were employed. Harassment in between battles? First line of defence? Both? There are logical explanations supporting both in the absence of further evidence, IMO.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[M. Bates]

As I understand it, the British preference was always to send a team of snipers if possible, because the benefits are manifold. Two pairs of eyes are better than one, the the presence of another man is a boost to morale. A sniper team also travels lighter than the single sniper.

One man had a No. 4 rifle equipped with telescope which was capable of revealing badges of rank.

The second man had an automatic rifle - a Winchester usually - and using his binoculars, would observe and pick out targets for the sniper rifle equipped man. The second man sometimes observed the killer shot with the telescope if the enemy was well hidden. It wasn't uncommon for snipers to "fire blind" after having been given the exact enemy location by the second man.

It was rare for the British to use single snipers, but there are obviously some types of people who work best by themselves. It was important that the two men in the sniper team got along together and had mutual understanding.

Natural hunters, Highlanders or Kangaroo hunters from Australia, made excellent snipers because their experience in getting "humane shots" on animal quarry came into its own at the front, where men prior to action had shot predominantly at 2D targets.

This is all from the one British perspective, I'd be interested to hear how for example the Americans employed snipers.

[Guest wwb_99]

Rumor has it that individuals from certain districts (pretty much Appalachia) were checked out for sniper school by default. Mainly because those kids grew up hunting dinner with ante bellum squirrel guns. If you can hit a squirrel between the eyes at 250m with a smoothbore black powder piece then you can definitely hunt humans at similar ranges.

WWB

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MAXIMUS

Chances are there's a locked up alternate thread with your quote there regarding Canadians being an isolationist country that only cares about what happens within its own borders, but I'm going to retort here as politely as possible.

Keep your uneducated opinions to yourself. Just keep on reading that Readers Digest For Kids and spare us your ignorance.

Oh, and have a nice light beer.

GAFF

[Guest Big Time Software]

Every army that we are aware of had trained "snipers". The history of snipers in the US is rather interesting. The public and the Army did not want them as a rule, but once they were at war they formed sniper schools and once again deployed them. After the war, the schools were disbanded and official recognition of their contribution was omitted. Basic reason was that most felt that a sniper was simply a murderer in uniform. Kinda funny (not ha-ha funny) when you think about it. This cycle happened after WWI, WWII, and Korea.

These highly trained teams were deployed for special "missions", not as every day combat soldiers. For example, some installation or vehicle presented a difficult problem to tackle. The sniper team would be brought in to "deal with it". They were not, so far as we can tell, deployed in a standard front line situation. They were too specialized and valuable for this.

Combat Mission uses "sharpshooters". These were the everyday, more or less "common", form of scoped rifle user. They were probably not specially trained, but instead were given their duty because they had demonstrated an ability for accurate shooting. They were generally held for similar missions as the higher level snipers, but these would be of a more localized nature.

In other words, it would be unlikely that a special sniper team would be sent to silence a single enemy MG annoying an individual platoon. But the Company's sharpshooter might very well be sent over to that platoon to help the situation out. The ideal condition would also not be during a full confrontation. Plenty of oportunities inbetween battles.

Steve

[M. Bates]

That makes sense, I suppose Combat Mission deals with the period immediately *before* sniper teams would be sent in and given tasks to do.

But how about... in Attack games, Sniper Teams or Single Snipers available for the defender, listed under "Fortifications"?

Fortifications imply that one side had been able to set up certain barriers and precautions, and sniper hides could possibly be part of that.

[DraGoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I'll do more reading on the subject, but so far as my limited knowledge goes, the situation of Sharpshooters in the British Army is not correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

British Army Snipers were originally trained at Bisley under the auspices of the Small Arms School (Hythe). Nowadays The renamed Small Arms Staff Cadre is based at The School of Infantry in Warminster and should have suitable historical material.

HTH

DG

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Remember:

Always end your lay in elevation.

[Guest Big Time Software]

We might put Sniper Teams into CM2. One reason we did not put them into CM1 is that we have no Rarity system. We figured we couldn't make a point cost that would discourage overuse AND still be low enough for people to purchase every so often. They were rare on the battlefield that CM simulates, so not including them was the better decision. But with CM2 we can overcome this problem.

Steve

[Rifle]

My step-father lost an eardrum to a friendly sniper in France ...

He was an arty FOO with the 12th (Cdn) F.A. and bet Sgt Tommy Prince of the Winnipeg Rifles that he couldn't hit a German that was digging a trench a fair distance away.

One lost eardrum one KIA ditch digger. Snipers in the Cdn. Army were sometimes referred to as 'scouts' <G> (See "The Pictorial History of the Canadian Army Overseas 1939-1945" p.198)

BTW - Sgt Tommy Prince was a sniper and rather than the standard Lee-Enfield rifle, he had a Ross with telescopic sights. He was also from one of the 'First Nations'.

Cheers,

Rifle

[DraGoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

We might put Sniper Teams into CM2. One reason we did not put them into CM1 is that we have no Rarity system. We figured we couldn't make a point cost that would discourage overuse AND still be low enough for people to purchase every so often. They were rare on the battlefield that CM simulates, so not including them was the better decision. But with CM2 we can overcome this problem.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love you guys.

(S'alright Benny not that sort of love.)

Great news, there are some great stories of female (and male of course) Russian snipers in action. We will be able to design these into suitable scenarios.

Did I tell you I love you today, I did ? OK

DG

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Remember:

Always end your lay in elevation.

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Great news, there are some great stories of female (and male of course) Russian snipers in action. We will be able to design these into suitable scenarios. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not stirring trouble here or anything, but I think that a lot of these so called Russian sniper stories are rubbish.

When I read of a Russian sniper who supposedly killed 304 Germans with 304 rounds fired, it's clearly bollocks!

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

Not stirring trouble here or anything, but I think that a lot of these so called Russian sniper stories are rubbish.B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure that you are correct. The Soviet progaganda machine was well advanced and spread all kinds of amazing (and untrue) stories around.

But that doesn't change the fact that there were some Soviet snipers, and they were used on the battlefield -- mostly in urban situations.

But yes, the 304 shots/ 304 kills thing is pretty ludicrous.

[M. Bates]

Terence,

Apparently Russian sniper stories were so prolific during WW2, that western civilians thought that "sniping" was a Russian word!!

Undoubtedly there are many genuine and deadly Russian snipers, especially the Siberian variety!

[DraGoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

Not stirring trouble here or anything, but I think that a lot of these so called Russian sniper stories are rubbish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, thats OK, I take disagreement well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When I read of a Russian sniper who supposedly killed 304 Germans with 304 rounds fired, it's clearly bollocks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hadn't heard that one before, must have been a member of the famous 20 yard Sniper Brigade.

However the Russians did indeed use snipers in a large number of roles. A few good, well placed, snipers can delay a complete advance by knocking out the decisive individuals and leaving the others scrambling for cover.

My main point was really that, as mentioned previously, their use on the Eastern front by both sides was far more prevalent than in the West and that I am glad to see they *might* be included.

[This message has been edited by DraGoon (edited 01-08-2001).]

[tss]

Terence wrote:

I'm sure that you are correct. The Soviet progaganda machine was well advanced and spread all kinds of amazing (and untrue) stories around.

Last spring I managed to find the booklet "Their name was Legion". It was a collection of translations of Soviet hero stories. Very entertaining to read, I must say. It would be very interesting to find out how much truth it contains. The booklet was printed in 1944, IIRC.

But that doesn't change the fact that there were some Soviet snipers, and they were used on the battlefield -- mostly in urban situations.

Here are two (true) stories of Soviet snipers. Both are from Finnish sources.

1. During Winter War at Kollaa, one Soviet sniper managed to kill three Finnish officers in two days. He was then hunted down by Finnish sniper, Simo Häyhä. I've posted details of this story earlier somewhere.

2. During the advance to River Svir in September 1941, one Finnish attack to a forested hill was repulsed a couple of times. The attackers had ~15 KIA, most killed with head shots. Because the tank batallion was nearby, a platoon of T-26 tanks was send in to help. The tanks started to shoot HE rounds to the hill. When one fir came down, the tankers saw that it had a platform on it and two men jumped up. The tankers were pretty amazed and stopped firing, but a nearby infantry platoon leader quickly shouted to them that they should continue firing and kill the snipers. The snipers were then cut down by MG fire. Those two snipers had caused at least 10 casualties on the attackers, maybe more.

- Tommi