109 Gustav Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Does anyone else feel that the chances for bogging on dirt roads is way to high in a ground condition of mud? In a recent battle, three of my six trucks bogged over a 500m strech of road when I gave them fast move orders. I live on the end of a 35 mile dirt road which turns to mud every spring. The ground conditions then are probably close to CM's mud, yet the road stays drivable. You can't go fast, but I've only gotten stuck in mud once or twice in the five years I've been driving. This is in a subaru station wagon, not a tank, jeep, or army truck. I doubt that these vehicles would get bogged at all. Speed over dirt roads should certainly be reduced when the ground is muddy. Roads get slick, rutted, and potholed, so you must slow down or risk skidding off the road. However, in my opinion, vehicles should rarely if ever bog on dirt roads. -109 Gustav ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Tom Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Does anyone else feel that the chances for bogging on dirt roads is way to high in a ground condition of mud? In a recent battle, three of my six trucks bogged over a 500m strech of road when I gave them fast move orders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your answer is right there. In muddy conditions, a fast command for trucks will have a MUCH greater chance of bogging (even on dirt roads) than if you gave them just the "move" command. As a matter of fact, later on in your post you even said yourself that you "can't go fast" on your own road. Same rules will apply, use the move command and it will most likely reduce drastically your bogging on the dirt road. Just think of that ol' deuce and a half barreling down that road at top speed and then "BAM", it hits a muddy rut. You'll get sucked in quicker than a Cesspool minute. Beware though, I've found some of my trucks/HT's bog on a dirt road even with just the move command, but not to a "great" extent. (In muddy conditions) GI Tom ------------------ To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 18, 2001 Author Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GI Tom: Your answer is right there. In muddy conditions, a fast command for trucks will have a MUCH greater chance of bogging (even on dirt roads) than if you gave them just the "move" command. As a matter of fact, later on in your post you even said yourself that you "can't go fast" on your own road. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The fast move command tells vehicles to go as fast as possible. Therefore, on dirt roads, that isn't very darn fast. They should travel slower and bog less when using the fast command. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just think of that ol' deuce and a half barreling down that road at top speed and then "BAM", it hits a muddy rut. You'll get sucked in quicker than a Cesspool minute. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Like I said above, if dirt roads were modeled correctly, deuce and a halfs wouldn't be barreling along. If I was driving one of them, and you gave me a fast move order, I would interpret that as "as fast as you can possibly go without a great risk of getting stuck. I just tested muddy road conditions out, BTW, and it turned out that my luck was probably a bit bad in the game I mentioned in the last post. The map was steep hills, maybe this has something to do with it. On a side note, the trucks bogged down more often than jeeps on the dirt roads. However, the jeeps bogged down more, and earlier, than the trucks on open ground. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 You also need to consider such factors as the geological condition of the soils the road is comprised of and how much traffic has been down it. In many parts of the world, dirt roads are not improved at all with gravel, clay, or sand. They are not graded or drained. They exist only because that is where traffic has gone. When it rains on one of these roads, it turns into knee-deep muck having approximately the load carrying ability of oatmeal. Even tracked vehicles can get bogged in this stuff. If you think CM is bad, wait till we get to CM2. Can you say "rasputitsa"? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATguy Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I too have lived on or near dirt roads in the past and yes I had no real problem navigating them. But you have to take into account the weight of your vehicle ( subaru is only 2000 lbs) and the amount of traffic on the road. A heavily traveled "wet" dirt or unimproved road will be a quagmire in no time at all and usually any drainage that was there before is wiped out by the repeated traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 18, 2001 Author Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: You also need to consider such factors as the geological condition of the soils the road is comprised of and how much traffic has been down it. In many parts of the world, dirt roads are not improved at all with gravel, clay, or sand. They are not graded or drained. They exist only because that is where traffic has gone. When it rains on one of these roads, it turns into knee-deep muck having approximately the load carrying ability of oatmeal. Even tracked vehicles can get bogged in this stuff. If you think CM is bad, wait till we get to CM2. Can you say "rasputitsa"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, it all depends on the road. I know paved roads in CM are supposed to include cobbled roads. I guess they must also include good gravel roads, ones that wouldn't get turned into mud by tanks. Now that I think of it, I've seen pictures of tanks moving along dirt roads in France. It was mud, you couldn't really tell where the road was. And I can't wait for rasputista. Not only would it really bog tanks, but there would be less roads in Russia. Think the weather in CM2 will have a negative effect on soldier's morale, because they have to live and fight in a mudhole? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 The idea that moving fast makes you more likely to bog is a myth. Yes, I know it says something like this in the manual, but tests done by me and others have consistently shown that speed has no effect on bogging. Do a search for threads with the word "bog" in the title only and you will find these test results. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I think the smell in the spring of all the rotted grass that has not tasted air in months should effect moral in CM2. Bad for Germans, good for Russians. Russians would be happy, smell means they don't have to worry about german attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 Keeping roads usable was a major problem in the autumn and spring 1944/5, especially for 21st Army Group in Holland. I have read many accounts on the difficulties they encountered, because of the wear of heavy traffic, tanks, endless supply columns on dirt roads that had been rained on endlessly. To see how the Germans dealt with it, have a look at the signs on my website I also have one or two nice pictures of mud roads in the Heeresgruppe Nord sector that I will post on maybe later tonight. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wennerberg Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I'm not as sure about the western front but on the eastern front during the "mud" seasons , dirt roads in Russia were often worse than the surounding countryside, creating horrible problems for german vehicles. Just wait until CM2! Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 This is slightly OT but relavent in a way. Has anyone noticed the state of crews that are forced to abandon vehicles that become immobile due to bogging? Not just bogged but totally stuck. Their morale state is the same as if the vehicle was hit or detroyed. I.E. shocked or shaken with LOW ammo. Now if my tank or truck was totally immobilized by ground conditions and NOT by or under fire I'd be pissed off not shaken and my sidearm would still have all it's ammo. BTS? ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Tom Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: The idea that moving fast makes you more likely to bog is a myth. Yes, I know it says something like this in the manual, but tests done by me and others have consistently shown that speed has no effect on bogging. Do a search for threads with the word "bog" in the title only and you will find these test results.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The manual was precisely what I was using as a reference for my statement. Also, it certainly appears more chance of a bog on the fast move than the move command based on what's happened in my CM gameplay. Maybe it is entirely my perception. Thanks for pointing it out, I've re-read some of the posts you were mentioning and it's answered alot of questions for myself. GI Tom ------------------ To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty: This is slightly OT but relavent in a way. Has anyone noticed the state of crews that are forced to abandon vehicles that become immobile due to bogging? Not just bogged but totally stuck. Their morale state is the same as if the vehicle was hit or detroyed. I.E. shocked or shaken with LOW ammo. Now if my tank or truck was totally immobilized by ground conditions and NOT by or under fire I'd be pissed off not shaken and my sidearm would still have all it's ammo. BTS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tank crews are trained specialists and usually under orders not to engage enemy tanks with their pistols - they are NOT infnatry, they are dismounted crews, and their historical usage was to withdraw and be assigned to another tank. Good points all around re:mud - First World War vets will tell you that Flanders mud is like no other mud in the world - it depends greatly on geography as well as geology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 18, 2001 Author Share Posted January 18, 2001 Great pictures, Germanboy. Barred from delousing! The horror! LOL. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty: This is slightly OT but relavent in a way. Has anyone noticed the state of crews that are forced to abandon vehicles that become immobile due to bogging? Not just bogged but totally stuck. Their morale state is the same as if the vehicle was hit or detroyed. I.E. shocked or shaken with LOW ammo. Now if my tank or truck was totally immobilized by ground conditions and NOT by or under fire I'd be pissed off not shaken and my sidearm would still have all it's ammo. BTS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh no, that couldn't have been an oversight in the programming. You see, war is a very messy business and while they were trying to push their vehicle out of the mud maybe someone sprained his wrist, or they dropped their ammo and it got all dirty so they left it there. I mean, it could happen ya know. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 18, 2001 Share Posted January 18, 2001 I was going to add this to my last post but couldn't remember the words Rome wasn't built in a day, And Adam didn't ride in a bus, For most of the earth's in a sandbag, And the rest of it's plastered on us. - British soldier's doggerel, World War One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Great pictures, Germanboy. Barred from delousing! The horror! LOL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks - can never quite figure out if they were serious. Here goes - just two, so as to not overload the server. Not from my grandfather directly, but from an unknown soldier, most likely Heeresgruppe Nord. Found them in his cupboard, he wanted to throw them away, so I took them along. Seems they have some problems. and these two for tero Have to get to work on the page again. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty: Has anyone noticed the state of crews that are forced to abandon vehicles that become immobile due to bogging? Not just bogged but totally stuck. Their morale state is the same as if the vehicle was hit or detroyed. I.E. shocked or shaken with LOW ammo. Now if my tank or truck was totally immobilized by ground conditions and NOT by or under fire I'd be pissed off not shaken and my sidearm would still have all it's ammo. BTS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Crews don't abandon their vechicles soley do to it being immobile. Something else has to happen to make them bail out. Like being shot at... Also LOW ammo is just that, low amounts not empty. Do you think a Tank Crew member would be carrying the same amount of ammo as a combat infantry man? IIRC though, units that bail out of a tank (Abondoned not Knocked Out) will still have 15 ammo points. I will test this to be sure. The low ammo/panic bailed crews from a KO vehicle was something we added in v1.1 Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi Matt, I checked with my opponent on this one,it's a night operation and neither one of us has even seen each other or fired a shot. And when I first noticed it I watched it about 8 times to make sure that was the case,I'm sure noone fired at my guys and my opponent says as far as he knows none of his guys have fired. It has occured twice the first time with a Stug III and the 2nd time with a Kubelwagon. The Stug crew is shaken and the KB crew is shocked. I'll send you the film if you want. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: Crews don't abandon their vechicles soley do to it being immobile. Something else has to happen to make them bail out. Like being shot at... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Crews of unarmed vehicles will bail when immobilized due to mud. I had this happen to a truck in Bucholz Station. They bogged on a dirt road, immobilized, and bailed out. I don't think they were even alerted though-- just a little annoyed at having to hike. There were no enemies nearby, and in fact, because it was an early version I didn't even see any germans until the last few turns (they were wandering aimlessly on the other side of the map) ------------------ Slayer of the Original Cesspool Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chrisl: Crews of unarmed vehicles will bail when immobilized due to mud. I had this happen to a truck in Bucholz Station. They bogged on a dirt road, immobilized, and bailed out. I don't think they were even alerted though-- just a little annoyed at having to hike. There were no enemies nearby, and in fact, because it was an early version I didn't even see any germans until the last few turns (they were wandering aimlessly on the other side of the map) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Madmatt, I can second this. I've tested jeeps and trucks on mud, and as soon as the vehicle becomes immobilized, the crew is outta there. Because they are abandoning their vehicle calmly, wouldn't they have time to grab any rifles or carbines they would be carrying? Surely truck drivers found room in the cab for an M1 or two? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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