Just finished The Omars operation for CMAK

[Runyan99]

Got my ass handed to me in a PBEM as the Allies. Not fun, not balanced, and too short. My opponent wasn't thrilled with it either, for different reasons.

I'd be happy to go into detail, but I don't want to post spoilers.

I'd do this at the scenario depot, but Rune does not post his scenarios there, so I thought I would share here.

Cheers.

[Paul Atreides]

If it is not fun, nor is it balanced, how could it be too short?

[WWB]

Aside from the fact that you think everything is too short, so there is no need for explanation, how about you cite specific reasons why you found it unfun?

WWB

[GJK]

Perhaps he's saying "because it was unbalanced and too short, it was not fun"? But I won't put words in his mouth.

[WWB]

Originally posted by GJK:

Perhaps he's saying "because it was unbalanced and too short, it was not fun"? But I won't put words in his mouth.

Saying "It was unbalanced" is pretty useless. Saying how it felt unbalaned is a bit more useful.

WWB

[rune]

SPOILERS

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It is a difficult operation, no doubt about it. Unbalanced? Maybe, but if you bother to read the briefing, you will see the gun placements are EXACT and the forces are real, but the reason it is semi-historical is we don't have Indian units, so I had to use the Kiwis. So, blame history and not me.

Oh yeah, in the unfairness, several people won as the Allies using the proper tactics for the situation. Frontal assault on trenches will get you killed, use the dunes on the side and take out a trench at a time, and use your artillery and mortars to take things out. The Matildas are not much help, and as in the real assault, paid dearly. However, you do get some CS tanks, and they do lend a hand.

I wanted to have the 2nd battle night also, but the engine will not do it.

Time, well, since people have won with the time the way it is, I don't see a problem, but extend it if you want. Not everyone wants 90 turn battles. Also some people want to see what happened in real life and see if they do better or worse then the actual combatants.

From Spitfire IX:

I just finished this operation last night and have a greater appreciation for the power of massed infantry and mortars. I won this operation by taking each trench one by one and attacking the trenches from multiple sides. The 25 pounders and other spotters were helpful. Once I had captured one trench placing these guys in there not only protected them but also gave them a good field of view. Try advancing with infantry along the sides of the map to avoid the trenches frontally. Then sneak your troops to the sand dunes near the trenches and then advance your troops. There is some cover on the battle field but you have to look carefully. I also lost loads of Matildas from the 88's but I pulled them back and let my infantry supress them and then take them out. Those small 50mm motars are really good for this. But I have to admit I was really frustrated once all my spotters and motars ran out of ammo, it was tought but I stuck to it and finnally one. Also Italian troops make up a lot of the defending troops in the battle and so it gets a little easier near the end. But honestly I found the Matildas almost useless, my infantry and spotters did 90% of the damage to the infantry.

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by WWB:

Aside from the fact that you think everything is too short, so there is no need for explanation, how about you cite specific reasons why you found it unfun?

WWB

Sure. I'll give a brief AAR.

I'm working only from memory, so I hope my account is correct.

The first battle, I moved my infantry forward in the night. I attacked along a broad front, left right and center, because I had so many troops for the width of the map. We hit the minefield, and took MG fire. I used engineers to clear some of the AP mines as I could. I was stopped more or less on the minefield as the battle ended.

The second battle, I got some scout cars and universal carriers, as I recall. I poked just a few of these over my AT ditch cover at the back of the map, and IDed the 88s. I spent the rest of the battle calling down artillery and mortar fire on enemy guns positions. I knocked out several guns, and I think all of the 88s. Still, there were some guns in operation, so it was silly to attempt to move any of these light skinned vehicles forward. The infantry could also not make any headway on any portion of the map. Any movement brought both mg and gun fire. So, the second battle ended.

The third battle brought the Matildas. I didn't get any CS tanks Rune, so I urge you to take another look at the op. I only had 2pdr Mattys with AP only ammuntion. But, I had lots of Matildas and I began to move them forward. As even more AT guns opened up on my Mattys, I again targeted them with mortars and artillery. Several more enemy guns were put out of action. As the Mattys hit the minefield, some hit the AT mines which up to this point NONE OF MY INFANTRY HAD SPOTTED, not even the engineers. This of course was the reason I had sent the infantry in first, but to no avail. As I attempted to move the Mattys through safe spots in the minefield, they were hit by yet even more AT fire, which was only increasing in intensity. I have to say, there were absolutely more AT guns on this piece of frontage than there were in any other CM battle I have ever played. Almost beyond belief, but Rune says they are accurate. In any case, I lost about half of my Mattys between the mines and the guns, and pulled the survivors back a bit as the battle ended. Again the infantry could not and did not move toward the trenches. I also had a large fleet of ACs and Carriers which could do nothing but make targets of themselves, and so were kept totally out of the action.

It was very frustrating for me because I didn't have anything capable of firing HE ammo. My only good weapon was my 25pdr artillery, but I could only achieve so much with it during each battle. The Mattys were well armored, but could offer little more than their MG to the battle. Although, I did find it is possible to KO an AT gun with AP ammo. But in any case, the number of enemy AT guns on this short stretch of desert was overwhelming.

Even so, maybe if I had a few more battles I could continue to reduce the defenses, and perhaps work into one of the trenches during another night battle. But, I had no more time. Given only three battles, I cannot see how it is possible to overcome these defenses with the weaponry I had to hand.

My opponent did't think much of it because all he really did was watch the turns and hit GO. There wasn't much for him to do.

So, that was my experience.

[rune]

Yep, I have a book with the exact layout of the fort. Even the trenches are set the way they were. As shown above, people have won the battle as the Allies. Not an easy thing to do, and in real life it wasn't. It was why the british by-passed the forts and went overland. However, they could not leave this thorn in their side, and the forts had to be taken.

I'll double check the tanks when I get home.

Rune

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

The first battle, I moved my infantry forward in the night. I attacked along a broad front, left right and center, because I had so many troops for the width of the map.

I got that far in your AAR...

I haven't played the op in question, but that statement tells me you threw the first battle. As I am sure you are aware, the attacker should try for a 2+:1 advantage, and you don't do that by spreading your attack out. All you manage to do on a broad front is make the defender stronger. Choose your point of attack (a flank usually) and hit it with the majority of your force.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Choose your point of attack (a flank usually) and hit it with the majority of your force.

I did exactly that for the first battle. I shifted the entire setup to the left, and worked my way up the flank. I took some losses from mines, but managed to get as far as the brush that runs along the left rear of the map by the end of the first battle. I also located (and cleared) a section of AT mines thanks to the heroic sacrifice of the first battle's uni carriers.

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I did exactly that for the first battle. I shifted the entire setup to the left, and worked my way up the flank. I took some losses from mines, but managed to get as far as the brush that runs along the left rear of the map by the end of the first battle. I also located (and cleared) a section of AT mines thanks to the heroic sacrifice of the first battle's uni carriers.

Then what happened? You've pushed past the mines, but the enemy infantry and AT assets are still intact.

Were the infantry you pushed forward out of resupply? How did you overcome the AT guns?

[ July 16, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

I haven't played the op in question, but that statement tells me you threw the first battle. As I am sure you are aware, the attacker should try for a 2+:1 advantage, and you don't do that by spreading your attack out. All you manage to do on a broad front is make the defender stronger. Choose your point of attack (a flank usually) and hit it with the majority of your force.

I expected someone to criticize me for that.

It's easy to advise concentration, but there are other considerations too. Like time and force density.

In the desert, with (basically) no cover, it is a good idea to keep force density low to minimize casualties. Packing a battalion into a 200m frontage has the potential to simply be a dense target when the MGs start. Even at night.

My other consideration was time. For the first night battle, I only had 25 minutes or so available. That isn't enough to move forward, locate the mines, overcome the mines, locate the enemy trenches, and finally suppress the enemy and move into the enemy trenches. Certainly not with an infantry only force in the desert. I just didn't think I had time to fight a whole breakthrough battle on the first go.

For these reasons, my only objective for the first battle was to probe. That's what I did, expecting to find or create a breach that I could exploit in battle #2 or #3.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

Then what happened? You've pushed past the mines, but the enemy infantry and AT assets are still intact.

Were the infantry you pushed forward out of resupply? How did you overcome the AT guns?

I should mention that I didn't follow Rune's instructions and begin each new battle from the AT ditch, but instead took advantage of the deep penetration to shift the deployments zones forward enough so that I could surround the Omar. I especially wanted to get my numerous 2" mortars within range.

The deep penetration group was to cover the flank and rear, and spot whatever they could for my main force. Meanwhile I positioned a dozen or so HQs on the edges of dunes and small hills, with one or more 2" mortars behind the rise but in command. They were the gun killers. When the second battle opened up I scooted forward with several ACs / Carriers to get the guns to reveal their positions, and then started to mortar each one. The ones which I concentrated on the most were the 88s. Even if the symbol is of a generic gun due to FOW The sound is unmistakable. Whatever gun survived the mortars would then get a barrage of 3" / 25pdr on their heads.

By the end of the second battle I had killed all of the 88S, plus 2 more guns. The ducks then rolled forward thru the previously breached minefield and MG'd the garrison. I think I lost 5-6 tanks, two of which fell to mines. The rest overran the defenders in conjunction with a general infantry assault. Mind you, it was a bloody assault.

Ironically, the units which suffered the most were from the deep penetration group. For all of battle 2 and most of battle 3 they hid in the brush at the back edge spotting for the main force. When I finally ordered them forward they were cut to pieces by a force of Italian defenders whom were hiding 200 meters away in the same brush.