karsten Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Has anyone heard anything about a Carbon or Cocoa verion of CM? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 No carbon copy or whatever you wanna call it. You'll have to run CM in OS 9.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted April 22, 2001 Author Share Posted April 22, 2001 I am currently running it in Classic, but it's quite slow. Are they working on an OS X version? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 At the moment all apps run a bit slow in Classic. If you recall back in 1994 when Apple transitioned from the 68000 series of chips to the PPC RISC chips, all apps ran in emulation. The early emulations were relatively slow but improved over time. Eventually all apps were recoded and compiled for the revised toolbox that related to the PPC systems and the emulation issue became substantially less (although substantial parts of the OS itself have only changed over relatively recently with OS 8 and so on). I understand that quite a few improvements are to be found in the latest release: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Apple's Mac OS X 10.0.1 Update ( http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n75125 ) and Software Update 1.3.1 were quietly made available as separate downloads, after being made only available via the Software Update Control panel late last week. Apple's newly updated Epson Print Drivers 1.0 are also available online. A new TIL 106271 has more details on the changes in the updates: [software Update 1.3.1] "provides enhancements to the Mac OS X Software Update engine, including resumable downloads, ability to work with proxy connections, and interface improvements." [10.0.1 Update] has "improved functionality with iTunes, improved compatibility with third-party USB and FireWire devices, ability to make SSH connections, Classic environment refinements, and Enriched compatibility with AFP (AppleTalk/AppleShare) volumes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So eventually we will get there. Hopefully BTS joins us. [ 04-21-2001: Message edited by: kmead ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karsten Posted April 22, 2001 Author Share Posted April 22, 2001 As is my hope. However, OS X isn't like the 040 to PPC change. We're not talking about coding for a new CPU, just changing some library calls in the case of Carbon. Isn't 1.12 OpenGL? or is it still RAVE? Has BF said anything official about OS X? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Yes you are entirely correct, but Apple chose to move to Open GL for X, and as I understand if, BTS coded the engine to RAVE. Someone from BTS feel free to disabuse me of this notion on this. With any luck, Steve will out of the blue say, Hey heres CMBO Carbon Compliant, on an off afternoon Charles whipped this off as practice for CMBB so we could beta the new code... (ok well it would be agreat thing , the afternoon thing, ah doubt it...) The other big deal is the way X writes to the screen and handles text as well (PDF), similar to the NEXT (X ) postscript display language. I know that Pangea is driving full speed ahead in this (carbon/cocoa) area with their games. I have searched before the blow up (its alot harder to do that now) and could not find a steadfast statement from the past, and our hosts have proven quite tight lipped on this subject so far. Not even a simple No or we are working on it . But we are a minority here as elsewhere so I guess we should be happy with having what we do (a little :mad:/ :confused: ). Maybe someone who actually knows something (which happily excludes Maximus as all he knows is his .02) will be happy to enlighten us. [ 04-22-2001: Message edited by: kmead ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther131 Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Hopefully CM will be carbonized to run in OS X eventually. CM unfortunatly runs in rave, and apple has decided to forgo that api in OS X. But I think that with tweaking CM can be carbonized. (that being a hopeful thought) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 Well we ahve gotten a reply to this question once and for all. Madmatt replied in the Tech Forum in this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=001486 The text is as follows: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord is done. Finished. No more work being done on it. That means no OS X native support. We are also not planning on making CMBB (CM2) native either. We will have native OS X support when we recode the CM engine. I would just add here that making CM native to OS X is *not* a simple thing. It requires that we fully strip out EVERY BIT of the 3D engine, which currently runs under RAVE (which *cannot* be native under OS X), and recode it to OpenGL. This will be done eventually with the engine rewrite, but it's no trivial task. People can thank Apple for not giving developers advance notice that they planned to switch to OpenGL (back in 1998 or 1999, whenever it was). They kept it secret for so long that we were already too far committed to RAVE to make the switch. As has been said before (and above) if you wish to play CM with OS X you will need to run in Classic Mode and this may also require removal of the "Classic Rave" Extension from the Extensions Folder. Please direct people with similar questions about Mac OS X support to this thread in the future if you would. Thanks! Madmatt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And my reply: Thanks for the heads up on this subject finally. We do appreciate BTS officially clarifying this issue for us. I am saddened that we will be waiting 2-3 years given the timetable for the future updates to CM engine 1. It does appear that in time I and others will be abandoning CM due to its incompatibility. I agree that Apple failed to give enough notice to developers to make the switch from the RAVE API to Open GL. I know other developers have had enough time, but in all likelyhood their Mac sales are much larger than BTS's as are their budgets/staffing and so on. Sadly, the news will likely cause the future of CMBO and its immediate children CMBB and so on to have little market penetration relative new Mac sales which will ship with OSX as standard. Most Mac users are unlikely to disable RAVE and suffer the massive performance hit. I will continue to have a Mac for the forseeable future with 9.04 to 9.1 for my childrens educational legacy software. It will be my lesser horesepower and the one I use least. I will soon be retiring my Win machine and do not intend to acquire another so I guess by my own choice I will forrego the immediate future of CM. Thanks for the information, and if you have more to add, I would appreciate your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 How many HDs have you in your Mac? Just left the OS 9 in one of the booteable HDs and reboot from there when you want to play CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 Most people with Macs run only with one hard drive, one can partition the one drive to allow for your suggestion which was a good one. Eventually it comes down to frustration and convenience (or lack thereof). In all likelyhood I will continue to run CM, it is just the new buyer issue that I am frustrated with. It will become a self fulfillng prophecy, by not supporting the latest version of MacOS sales of the Mac OS version will fall so there will be less and less reason to continue to develop the software for the platform. I have watched it happen time after time, I just harte to see it here. Most Mac users do not want to fuss with the arcana of a computer, its one of the primary reasons they bought a Mac in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 I know nothing about Macs other than a Desktop Publishing class in High School (many moons go) but it does seem strange, dangerous, and impolite to release a new operating system that lacks support for older software ans for other types of 3D modelling. In fact, it is a recipe for disaster... Why did they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 Please add my voice to the OS X owners who look forward to a Carbon / Cocoa version of CM and CM2. In the mean time, I continue to enjoy CM from 9.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 I buy a Mac because the arcana of computer are easy in MacOS And the new ATA drives Mac compatible are really cheap. Is just a plug and play issue... Even is easy to make an Apple Script to do all it automatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 That's easy? I don't even know what the Hell you just said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 I am not the best person to answer this, but I will bare my ignorance and try anyway. Apple changed the OS and the screen description language for many reasons: to move from a fairly antiquated OSto one that could better deal with memory, file structure, and hosts of other issues. Most software (meaning non-game software not specifically CM) does not lock itself so closely to a specific way of describing the information that is written to a screen. Games, in order to maximize speed, quality and so on tend to do so, so a change in the standard the OS adheres to is a big deal for a game. Apple is changing focus and trying to carve a redoubt if you will in terms of application. The class you took so long ago in desktop publishing is a perfect example of the last time Apple did this same exact thing, they in fact changed the entire mass market computer industry with wisiwig (what you see is what you get) which propelled Apple into a very strong position in the creative industry. They are trying to do this again, evidence is the availability of Maya (in tha past iterating through Alias, Alisas Wavefront) a fabulous 3D modelling/rendering/animation package previously only available for UNIX based and later NT systems. OSX is effectively a GUI layed over a UNIX kernal (MACH which was acquired when Steve Jobs came from NEXT and Apple bought the assets of NEXT including its operatiing system). This gives huge operating improvements in the area of multitasking, protected memory, distributed computing (render farms) and so on. Apple has never been a 'gaming machine' and so to loose a small segment of their market is of consequence but not debilitating. Several companies have committed to develop games for the revised environment including Pangea, Graphsim Westlake and others. Pangea had versions of their latest software developed for OSX Beta, and the Doom or some other FPS game company has been very pleased with the OpenGL decision as they see it as a real opportunity to develop for the Mac. So, no it is not suicide, but in acuality a very good move. As I stated above, companies that can afford to spend lots on development with extra people and so on can respond to this change. Others cannot with the same speed. In the past other companies that offered Mac software have dropped by the wayside for very good economic reasons. One of my favorites was Deadly Games, most of whose games no longer run on a Mac. What I have stated here is not a criticism of BTS, they are doing what they have to and what they can with the resources they have available relative to the market opportunity. If I have incorrectly stated information I would appreciate anyone who actually knows something to kindly correct the above info and to add to it. Given that Maximus only knows his .02, and we have already heard his .02, he need not post to this thread or any of the other Mac related threads. [ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: kmead ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kmead: Most Mac users do not want to fuss with the arcana of a computer, its one of the primary reasons they bought a Mac in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why do you think Apple flooded the schools with Apple IIs in the early-mid '80s? So they would be easy for the children to learn with. Heaven forbid to put an IBM machine in front of them with DOS. Too complicated. I'll tell ya what turned me off of Apple-based computers. When I was a Senior in Highschool back in '91, I was in a Computer Science class. We had Apple IIe computers in there with those nice mono-chrome green screens & 5.24" external floppy drives. In the same year, I took a Business Computer class across the hall, as a matter of fact. They had IMB-compatibles in there, probably 386 machines at the time. They had color screens! I believe they had Windows 3.0 on them. Graphical Interface, wow! We would go back into the Computer Science class and write up a little BASIC program that did a loop which wrote "Apples suck" that scrolled down the screen infinitely. Teacher didn't care too much for that, but I think he knew it was true. That fall, in my first semester of college, I got my first computer. A 386DX-33Mhz w/4MB of memory! Wow! 1MB video card. 85MB HDD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 Hey thanks for the succinct reply. It makes sense then that they would be willing to temporarily damage their (small) games market, if it meant a vast improvement in the other areas of their line. It is just hard to imagine a computer has any other purpose than games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kmead: [QB]Apple has never been a 'gaming machine' and so to loose a small segment of their market is of consequence but not debilitating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So why make it into what it is not? Or better yet, why complain that there isn't that many games for the Mac, when Macs aren't, as you said, "gaming machines". Isn't that the reason for the need of Game Sprockets and all that good stuff? And all this stuff about my $.02 is just $.02, bite me! At least I don't have to flood the Tech Forum with, "CM locks up on my Mac"-type questions. It still seems that you feel the need to defend your use and purchase of Mac computers when you know they "aren't gaming machines". Maybe all you Mac users need to look into Micrsoft's X-Box for your gaming needs. ROTFLMAO! [ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Maximus ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted April 24, 2001 Share Posted April 24, 2001 Nope, not going to get into it with you guys on another "My X is Bigger, Better and Faster Than Your Y" argument. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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