Panther under-rated?

[Freak]

I think your account of Prochorovka is not correct.

Quote from link:

"Das Reich began its attack from several kilometers southwest of Prochorovka and was quickly engaged by aggressive battle groups of the II Tank Corps and II Guards Tank Corps. Fierce, somewhat confused fighting broke out all along the German division's axis of advance. Battle groups of 20 to 40 Soviet tanks, supported by infantry and ground-attack planes, collided with Das Reich regimental spearheads. Rotmistrov continued to throw armor against the division, and combat raged throughout the day, with heavy losses of Soviet armor. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward, advancing into the night while suffering relatively light tank losses..."

"The fighting, characterized by massive losses of Soviet armor, continued throughout July 12 without a decisive success by either side--contrary to the accounts given in many well-known studies of the Eastern Front, which state that the fighting ended on July 12 with a decisive German defeat. These authors describe the battlefield as littered with hundreds of destroyed German tanks and report that the Soviets overran the SS tank repair units. In fact, the fighting continued around Prochorovka for several more days. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward in the area south of the town until July 16. That advance enabled the III Panzer Corps to link up with the SS division on July 14 and encircle several Soviet rifle divisions south of Prochorovka...."

"Totenkopf eventually reached the Kartaschevka-Prochorovka road, and the division took several tactically important hills on the north edge of its perimeter as well. Those successes were not exploited, however, due to decisions made by Adolf Hitler. "

The account indicates that germany actually held won key ground points but due to Hitlers insanity they were orderd to pull out.

Here is a good quote:

"It is apparent from their operations during the late summer that the SS panzer divisions were not destroyed at Prochorovka. This reassessment of the battle provides food for thought regarding possible German successes if Manstein's panzer reserves had been utilized as he had intended."

And again:

"As Manstein suggested, Prochorovka may truly have been a lost German victory, thanks to decisions made by Hitler. It was fortunate for the Allied cause that the German dictator, a foremost proponent of the value of will, lost his own will to fight in southern Ukraine in July 1943. Had he allowed Manstein to continue the attack on the two Soviet tank armies in the Prochorovka area, Manstein might have achieved a victory even more damaging to the Soviets than the counterattack that had recaptured Kharkov in March 1943."

Sorry to use so many quotes. Though they are interesting.

[This message has been edited by Freak (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Conall]

I think a lot of people here are missing the point about the supposed slowness of the Panther's turret. The Panther A & G used a variable speed hydraulic turret, so that it could rotate it's turret 360deg in 15 seconds at 3000 rpm & 360deg in 18secs at 2500rpm. Only the Panther D was at a serious disadvantage as it's hydraulic motor only rotated 360deg in 60 secs. Therefore a Panther A or G in the hands of an experienced crew could rotate their turret almost as fast a Sherman (360deg in 12 secs) - not really a significant difference. Of course the disadvantage of such a hydraulic system was that you were f**ked if your engine stalled & it was much more flammable than an electric system.

Best regards,

Conall

[This message has been edited by Conall (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Freak:

The account indicates that germany actually held won key ground points but due to Hitlers insanity they were orderd to pull out.

Manstein had the luxury to focus on Kursk - Hitler had to defend Italy at this time. With Italy, the oil-fields of Ploesti, the south German industrial centres, the metal mines of the Balkans, some rather unstable allies (Romania, Bulgaria) etc.pp. Seen in isolation the analysis may appear to be right, but it is missing the woods for the trees.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by Freak:

A note about kursk and the eastern front 1943. There is new evedence that shows, there were no panthers during the operation citadel (kursk).

Their certinly were Panther Ausf D's operating during Zitadelle. Panthers operated with Pz Abt's 51 & 52 each Abt had 96 Panther Ausf D & 2 Bergepanther's. Both

Abt were attached to 48th Pz.Korps.

The only errors I have seen concerning Panther employment during Zitadelle, has been constant Russian claims that Panthers & Elephants operated with II SS. Pz.Korps at Prokorovka.

Regards, John Waters

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Their certinly were Panther Ausf D's operating during Zitadelle. Panthers operated with Pz Abt's 51 & 52 each Abt had 96 Panther Ausf D & 2 Bergepanther's. Both

Abt were attached to 48th Pz.Korps.

The only errors I have seen concerning Panther employment during Zitadelle, has been constant Russian claims that Panthers & Elephants operated with II SS. Pz.Korps at Prokorovka.

Regards, John Waters

Thats quite a claim since I heard all the Elephants were in the north!

I remember that ISS Pz Div had only 4 operational Tigers at Prokorvocha.

On the APDS Vs sloped plate issue Conall sent me some cutaways of 17lb APDS ammo and the penetrator nose is very sharp indeed. This explains its poor penetration Vs sloped armor . All the WW-II rounds that had sharp point and no ballistic cap suffered under slanted impact and if you exhamine all the APDS APCR & HVAP there all sharp tipped. When such a projectile strikes sloped armor the force upward is much more than a 'capped' or blunted projectile.

Most of the APC and APCBC were blunted and the Russian ones were flat tipped . This may explain why there ammo reports more penetration Vs sloped armor than less.It certainly explains why APCBC was less effected by slope.

I know that post war APDS all got caps and even remember seeing cut away drawings of 17 Lb , 105 & 120 APDS with such caps.

The post war 105 APDS is reported by Rheinmettal to be 1/Cos^ 1.1 @ 60o impact angle.

[Freak]

Thanks for the correction bredberg, germanboy, and PzKpfw 1. Thats what I had ment to say about Panthers operating at kursk. Not that there were no panthers at kursk but no panthers within the SS at operation citadel or zitadelle.

I should be more careful writing my posts. : )

Thats what I get for having no sleep last night; as you can see with my earlier spelling : )

Thanks again.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Barticus:

Weakness of the final drive also horrifically afflicted the T34-85, PIV, PIV/70 and the StuGs. With the exception of the Sherman none of the tanks that fought in World War II could be considered ‘reliable’ as it is understood today.

Bah they don’t trust me with a rifle, Pistol only for me. I’m sorry about riding you about sleeping in the comfy hospital JonS I’m going to be in the rear for the duration apparently.

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Absolutely Shatter, you have been completely misunderstood. When Andreas, Chuppy and Peter posted pictures of themselves at the IWM I took the earliest opportunity to complement Chuppy on how hot he looked in that T-shirt. Of course the next time an appropriate thread about the front bogey wheel on the Matilda II came up I skillfully insinuated a subtle remark about what a spunk PeterNZ was and a redhead too!

But alas, shatter, everyone thought I was a dickhead as well.

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Muddying the waters as usual.

by Simon Fox

Mr T says "I pity the foo!"

[Guest machineman]

Originally posted by Bastables:

Weakness of the final drive also horrifically afflicted the T34-85, PIV, PIV/70 and the StuGs. With the exception of the Sherman none of the tanks that fought in World War II could be considered ‘reliable’ as it is understood today.

The Germans did have a reliable chassis, only it was the Czech one that the Hetzer was based on.

A main source of Panther troubles at Kursk was that the sealed in engine compartment designed for deep wading hurt airflow through the engine caused it to overheat, that and deficient gaskets caused by lack of raw materials caused leaks of petrol and oil. These problems were solved later on by giving up on the wading option and improving gasketing. The big Maybach was also hurt by poor material used to seal the wet cylinder liners, causing coolant to get into the oil when the engine got hot.

A lot of German problems with machines were simply lack of suitable raw materials and having to sort out eratz solutions before the age of plastics and artificial rubber.

Soviet is different. I've helped overhaul a V-12 Soviet diesel engine a few years ago and it was amazing how roughly it was put together. 'Just make it big, slap it together and don't rev it too fast' seemed to be the factories motto.

[bredberg]

Panther losses at Kursk:

From Guderians report to HQ (included in Jentz: Panzertruppen Vol 2) regarding the performance of the Panthers in Panzer Reg. 39 (8 Pz V), consisting of: Pz Abt 51 (96 Pz V) and Pz Abt 52 (96 Pz V).

10/7: 10 operational Panthers, 25 total losses (23 knock-out, 2 mechanical total losses), 100 in repair (56 hits/mines, 44 mechanical). 81 Panthers were out of order due to hits (I'm not quite sure if Guderian includes mines as a hit? Also 56+23 is not equal to 81, but 56+23+2....).

140 destroyed enemy tanks, mostly T-34, at an average distance of 1500-2000m

11/7: 38 operational Panthers, 31 total losses, 131 in repair.

It seems that eventhough the Panthers were mechanical vulnerable during Kursk, the main part of tanks were out of order, due to enemy action.

Cheers Jonas