KnifeForkSpoon Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 The reason I'm asking is that I'm recreating the CC2 scenarios/operations and in the CC2 game it allows for AT guns to be purchased by the Poles. Now in CM, the Poles during that timeframe aren't allowed any heavy support weapons other than vickers and mortars. Seeing as how in the CC2 operation (for the poles), there is no heavy armor for them to face, it might be a not matter if they don't have access to them 6 lbrs. They didn't need 'em? I'd imagine that CM has got it right, but I was wondering if any of you could confirm yea/nay if historically speaking, the Poles landed with any Heavy support weapons. KFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 Just change the timeframe to a later date, buy the 6pdrs, then switch it back. I'm sure they did have some 6pdrs, otherwise they never would have been able to hold off the Germans. Were their Gliders or only paratroopers involed? If their were gliders, then for sure, they brought AT guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Canuck Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 I recently met with a Veteran of Market Garden (6th Airborne)...he was a part of a ATG crew that was dropped south of the Rhine to support the Polish...He was English. So what I might do is have Polish Para...but have Britsh Para AT support. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt Canuck: I recently met with a Veteran of Market Garden (6th Airborne)...he was a part of a ATG crew that was dropped south of the Rhine to support the Polish...He was English. So what I might do is have Polish Para...but have Britsh Para AT support. Dave<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There's no arguing with that. Now I wonder about British Airborne flamethrowers, in Sept. 44... --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 Uh-oh. I'm going to need a 6-pounder for the counterattack? This could be bad. :eek: I've been a beta-tester of sorts for KFS for some of his Market-Garden series of scenarios... [shameless plug coming for KFS--be warned!] and they oustanding!!! He has created a bunch of beautiful maps and done an excellent job with the force composition for both sides. If he ever releases them for the rest of the world, grab them quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeForkSpoon Posted July 2, 2001 Author Share Posted July 2, 2001 AWWwwww, shucks. You're only being nice cause you're-AH-Whoopin' me buttocks but GOOD! Driel farmlands will represent the 9th SS Panzer Div. counterattack. Soooo Lookout! (But I don't think I'll be putting any heavy armor in there, since there weren't any in the CC2 battles. But yah never know.) KFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 I think the Polish equipment was due to come in by glider at Oosterbeek before the Poles parachuted in at Driel. From what I remember of Cornelius Ryan's book, the gliders were late, and I think most of the equipment was lost because the drop zones were being fought over at the time. What I don't know is whether AT guns were part of that equipment – it would make sense for some to be dropped with the paras, as apparently was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KnifeForkSpoon: The reason I'm asking is that I'm recreating the CC2 scenarios/operations and in the CC2 game it allows for AT guns to be purchased by the Poles. Now in CM, the Poles during that timeframe aren't allowed any heavy support weapons other than vickers and mortars. Seeing as how in the CC2 operation (for the poles), there is no heavy armor for them to face, it might be a not matter if they don't have access to them 6 lbrs. They didn't need 'em? I'd imagine that CM has got it right, but I was wondering if any of you could confirm yea/nay if historically speaking, the Poles landed with any Heavy support weapons. KFS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> the 1st Polish PB landed at Driel with 750 men & 'no heavy equiptment'. Their Hvy equiptment had been lost in gliders 2 days earlier. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted July 2, 2001 Share Posted July 2, 2001 Ryan mentions the loss of the Polish gear in "A Bridge to Far". It was lost on the first (and some) on the second days of the the drop in glider accidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeForkSpoon Posted July 2, 2001 Author Share Posted July 2, 2001 Thanks, lads. Very helpful bunch, wot wot. (Look out Engy!!! ) KFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 The 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade was a self contained organisation with various heavy weapons support elements embedded. The Polish drop on 21st Sept was a disaster not because of casualties caused by ground fire as depicted in the movie (Estimated only 5 dead and 25 wounded), but because of bad weather. The entire brigade was recalled shortly after take off. Due to erroneous communications only 41 of the 114 C47s turned back, the remainder continued on to Arnhem where about two thirds of the Brigade were dropped at Driel. The portion of the Brigade that had turned back were dropped near Nijmegen on 23 September and travelled by land to join the rest at Driel thereafter. The only support elements that would have made it in on the 21st were the Vickers MG and 3" Mortar Platoons of the Parachute Battalions. They were definitely incomplete. The Brigade's Anti Tank Battery comprised 16 6 pdr ATGs. The planners in their wisdom decided to land all the guns North of the river. 6 guns on the 18th Sept with the 1st Airborne's second lift, of which 5 were successfully recovered and eventually incorporated into the Oosterbeek perimeter. 10 guns on the 19th Sept of which only three were recovered. Here are the estimated figures for the number of Polish troops that dropped on the 21st (excludes troops landed North of the Rhine). Brigade HQ - 77 1st Battalion - 62 2nd Battalion - 323 3rd Battalion - 210 Anti-Tank Coy (no guns) - 62 Engineer Coy - 87 Signals Coy - 64 Medical Coy - 70 Supply Coy - 36 Light Artillery Coy - 3 (No Polish 75mm Pack Howitzers were landed at Arnhem, they followed up with the seaborne tail) British Liason officers - 9 Hope this helps Regards, Peter Edit note: The German counter-attack would have been undertaken by the 10th SS Panzer Division KGr. However, this possibly included remnants of Graebner's 9th SS Reconnaissance Battalion. [ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: IPA ] [ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: IPA ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: There's no arguing with that. Now I wonder about British Airborne flamethrowers, in Sept. 44... --Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> AFAIK, 18 flame throwers went in with the 1st AB Division. 6 for each of the three main Engineer Companies (1st and 4th Parachute Squadrons and 9th Field Co). Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 OK, let's see. IPA, I congratulate you on your knowledge! Indeed, the 1st Ind. Pol. Para. Bde. had AT guns. They were flown in by glider (Polish glider pilots) into the LZ at Oosterbeek. However, it was a mass of confusion as a firefight between the "Red Devils" and the SS was underway when they landed. Some of the guns were used in the perimeter though. Very good! Why CC2 has the AT guns in Driel is beyond me. However, I'll be more than happy to see some new ABTF scenarios for CM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 HOPE NOBODY MINDS A LITTLE JOKE AND CERTAINLY NO MEANNESS INTENDED. WHAT DO THEY CALL 10,000 POLISH PARATROOPERS? - AIR POLLUTION - SORRY I COULDN'T HELP IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeForkSpoon Posted July 3, 2001 Author Share Posted July 3, 2001 Thanks again, for all the GREAT information. Real treasure trove of knowledge 'round these parts. KFS P.S. Love that info 'bout flamethrowers with the engineers. Might have to fiddle round with that a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947: Incredibly stupid post<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lets try to avoid this kind of thing, shall we? It is guaranteed to irritate people even if you say its not intended to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted July 3, 2001 Share Posted July 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KnifeForkSpoon: P.S. Love that info 'bout flamethrowers with the engineers. Might have to fiddle round with that a bit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I love it too. How many will I get? engy [ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: engy ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_2 Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 I will love to see some more airborne scenarios too.. Especially Polish/UK Airborne ones .!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski: They were flown in by glider (Polish glider pilots) into the LZ at Oosterbeek. However, it was a mass of confusion as a firefight between the "Red Devils" and the SS was underway when they landed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it was a mass of confusion. The KOSB's were holding on to the landing zone by their fingernails. Then the Polish gliders came into land while the 10th Parachute Battalion was retreating across the open ground. Panic ensued when the Germans appeared in the treelines. Moon has made a very good scenario depicting this episode of the battle called "A Polish Tragedy". An entirely apt title. KFS, oh go on, give the people what they want! There have been very few scenarios covering OMG for some time now. I have been working on an enormous Northern Oosterbeek Cauldron Scenario for many months now, but I won't release it until the map and historically present forces are as perfect as I can make them with CM and until it's been thoroughly playtested. Cheers. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 Ah, must check that scenario out. Anyone have a link (too lazy to look for it myself). Look forward to KFS's and IPA's scenarios! [ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: Gen. Sosaboski ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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