dima Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I haven't seen this one discussed before... Anyways, in many attack missions mostly those with 30+ turns, my infantry with excellent support of tanks is able to elliminate enemy squads completely and pretty fast. There are usualy 1:1 ratio of dead enemy soldiers and my infantry alive and well. But soon my men have LOW ammo. Couldn't they just pick-up rifles and magazines from foxholes and other defence strucrures they captured ? There should be plenty ! It is probably too late to modify CM, but hopefully in CM2 would have something like this ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I don't see why they couldn't. German troops on the eastern front often picked up PSSH 41's to augment their squad firepower. For that matter would a inf. group be able to use an artillery piece if it was captured intact. Would that be realistic? Best Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 do a search john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 well, capturing bigger guns or even machineguns is bigger problem since they would most likely be damaged or destroyed. But small arms lying in the captured buildings can become handy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 It has been discussed before and BTS nixed the idea. Don't expect to see it in CM2 either. CM is a game that lasts on average 30-60 minutes. The idea that some regular troops are going to run over and man abandoned weapons that were crew served is a bit of a stretch. Or did you plan on having spare arty crews in tow in case you find an 88 that happens to be working. Maybe in a FPS it "makes sense", but not here. Hell, with no training on foreign weapons (big stuff) I would imagine it would take a fair amount of time to bring the gun into use, and then at a reduced level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 I see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Here's a couple of threads on the topic. There have been dozens of them in the past. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000670.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001977.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 More likely is the use of what is called scavenging. During intense battles veteran soldiers will grab ammo from dead and wounded. In house to house fighting a la Stalingrad ammo loads were used so fast that both Russian and German units used "ammo bunnies" to run ammo to point units. Ammo bunnies would dump ammo in secure locations for front line troop to ressupply with before pushing on the next block or falling back to a new location. If you have never fired a side arm, it takes more than a few minutes to figure out how to use it even if it is a bolt action rifle. The sights are in the wrong language, some guy's brains are clogging the magazine, the strippers don't work the way you expect and you just busted one in the bolt because you did not know (German 98 strippers flew out when the bold was run forward but Russian strippers had to be manually pulled out). Then you fire the thing and nothing happens even though you cleared the stripper jam and cleaned the last guys brains from the rifle. Now you have to figure out were the safety is. Is it on the trigger, on the bolt, or is something else wrong you never heard of. Did you fail to jack the Maxim twice, forget to slap the PPSH40 bolt to assure a good seat, not get the Garand's en block down all the way, or is it the bent feed lips on the MP40 that is holding you up? In other words, the idea that WW2 era troops could take apart, fire, load, and service enemy weapons is a stretch. Maybe Anthony Herbert used 12 enemy weapons during his fight against the Chinese when he was cut off and surrounded, but the average schmo will need a couple of days to get used to enemy weapons, not a couple of minutes. And the 15 minute enemy weapons lectures are no help -- it takes far longer to get comfortable with any weapon. When I first fired an SKS after using my Garand for several years it took me a good week to get so I could load it without thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 Those threads mostly deal with bigger guns or vehicles. I was refering to small rifles only. It is a shame to waste your last clip killing the enemy in foxhole and then feeling uncomfortable with enemy rifle and therefore continue attacking without AMMO. At least veterans should be able to figure out how to make those rifles work. I haven't seen WW2-type weapons, but I have seen and used AK47 and can tell you that even 5-year old kid can figure it out [This message has been edited by dima (edited 01-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dima: Those threads mostly deal with bigger guns or vehicles. I was refering to small rifles only. It is a shame to waste your last clip killing the enemy in foxhole and then feeling uncomfortable with enemy rifle and therefore continue attacking without AMMO. At least veterans should be able to figure out how to make those rifles work. I haven't seen WW2-type weapons, but I have seen and used AK47 and can tell you that even 5-year old kid can figure it out [This message has been edited by dima (edited 01-08-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But that is just the point, your troops would not be comfortable with the weapon, so why in the world would they drop weapons they are expected to have when the battle is over, scoop up weapons they are unfamiliar with, scavenge for ammo, compare ammo with weapon to assure all is well, then charge into the attack again. Maybe they would use those weapons in defence, but my bet is they would send a runner back for more ammo rather than dumping their own weapons unless it is an extreme replay of tha alamo. And sure, an AK is easy to fire, but what if you are the prodigal 5 year old, and I give you a mud and brains encrusted AK with no mag, and tell you that mags and ammo are on the stiffs. You need to find the ammo, make sure the rifle is serviceable, then charge back into battle. The fact is it almost never happened that way. You just sent back for more ammo and halted the attack. After all, you sims simulate real humans who don't want to die with an unknown jammed weapon in their hands when they can wait 15 minutes and get more ammo for a further push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 Better to lock this one up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 [This message has been edited by dima (edited 01-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Also, If you notice. Your infantry never runs out of ammo. The lowest they will go is to a "Low" ammo state. This makes them kind of usless for an offensive role. But leaves them enough ammo to defend themselves. I believe this is suppose to represent scavaging. Your troops can scavage enough to remain armed and protected. But not enough to continue on the offensive. Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX and for Kitty's sake =^..^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Low ammo infantry is great for hand-to-hand fighting. One other factor about picking up a new weapon is superstition. If you have a perfectly good rifle that has served you well in tight spots, even if it is momentarily out of ammo, you are not going to drop it. Soldiers have very tight relationships with their weapons, which was true in Roman times and is true now. So they are not about to risk breaking that relationship by picking up a weapon on the ground, except in the most dire of circumstances. And as Slapdragon pointed out, combat is not a good time to figure out the idiosyncracies (sp?) of enemy hardware. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Slapdragon wrote: Did you fail to jack the Maxim twice I've been reading old soldier's manuals lately and I was pretty surprised when I came to this particular instruction. I can comfortably say that if I had tried to get a Maxim into working condition in a hurry, I would have miserably failed. (Note, if you jack it only once, you will get only single shot). In other words, the idea that WW2 era troops could take apart, fire, load, and service enemy weapons is a stretch. Except those cases where both sides used similar weapons, but I wont digress into that this time. See my postings on older threads of this subject. However, there were several battles where weapon scrounging was more or less the norm. I mean the trench war battles of Summa and Taipale during the Winter War. The defenders stockpiled lots of hand grenades, demolition charges, and Molotov coctails in small caches that were dug in the trench wall. During the day, Soviet artillery collapsed the trenches, and during nights they were dug again, maybe in a slightly different position. As a result, the terrain got littered with explosives, and a man in need had relatively good chances of finding one by digging around. Vänrikki (2nd Lt.) Alpo Reinikainen mentions in his memoirs that he once (on February 18) noticed that three Soviet T-28s were advancing towards his position. He then started digging around and in a few minutes he found several demolition charges that he prepared for use. However, when he raised himself to look whether the first tank was in range, he was incapacited by MG fire. I don't think that there's any reason for including this kind of scrounging in CM. Actually, Soviet major offensives in the Winter War are pretty much impossible to recreate in CM. I can say with confidence that no human player would be bone-headed enough to lose as the Red Army. On that particular day (18 February) that I mentioned, Reinikainen's "Stronghold IV" repulsed all attacks against it, even though in the end there were less than 10 unwounded defenders left. One reason why this happened was that Soviets simply couldn't find the stronghold! The whole terrain was so badly mauled by artillery fire that all identifiable landmarks had been destroyed long ago. So ten men, firing only whenever Soviets got too close managed to hold their positions for the whole day (however, it was the only stronghold that wasn't lost that day). Now with the CM engine the Soviet _player_ would know the approximate location of the defenders from the minute that they first begin firing, even with relational spotting. He could then gather several dozens of squads and a couple of tanks and overrun the stronghold without any serious resistance. (Note that the Winter War map ( http://www.tcs.hut.fi/~tssyrjan/kirvesmaki.zip ) that I made several months ago is of this sector) - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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