Gremlin Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 What seems to get forgotten in these discussions sometimes is that many players (myself included) are often more interested in "pure" tactics than historically accurate force types and battle recreations. That is, we're interested in how different units and combinations of units interact with one another, largely outside of concerns of historical verisimilitude. My PBEM partners and I are perfectly happy to play QB's with possibly unrealistic force combinations because of the diversity and challenge and fun that such games can afford. If we want to limit the compositions somehow, we just make a gentelemen's agreement before the setup, typically using one of Fionn's rules. Games with übertanks can be exceptionally interesting and challenging because of the practical and psychological effects of those beasts rumbling across the battlfield. Taking them out often requires different tactics than those that might normally be applied to dealing with armor, so that's a reward in itself. And let's face it, the super heavies can be just plain fun to fight with ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. "90% of the crucial decisions in this business are made by idiots who don't even play games." Cliff Bleszinski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedbump Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Snake Eyes: Sorry, couldn't find the Smilie for "Tounge planted firmly in cheek"! I enjoy the game, as a matter of fact, I am on several ladders, but haven't checked my score in weeks! Speedbump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 15, 2001 Author Share Posted February 15, 2001 I have the same thoughts as someone above, I am a student of the Eastern Front, and I know that there were alot of heavies. In CM 2 I will role KV's and Tigers, that is what was there. I agree that there were fewer on the western front, but there were some. I think most of your are right, that stating the rules and type of play before hand is a good idea, but I did that. We agreed to have unrestricted buy. So therefore you can expect anything to come out. To me that is what the game is all about(figuring out a stratagy to beat a better equiped or more stratigicly sound player oppenent). Where is the challenge in knowing you will have not have to fave anyhting above 75mm? We know what happened historicly, and if you are interested in repeating it that is great, but a computer game has a hard time with reality. As great as a game as this is (thanks BTS) it can in no way simulate all real world situations. That is why I prefer to play games that let the player pick what ever he/she likes. Besides I am sure that there were a few King tigers and such around when the americans were fighting (I even have a pick of a captured KV 2 being used). Is it that when you get into battle you cannot believe your luck in having to face one, or are you just being a crying little school girl cause they got a big tank? That is where my bitch lays; those that when they see one, even thought they bought unrestricted, whine like they are playing a game to which there is not possiblity of winning(you can learn a lot from a loss). Above there are several posts about hitting heavy tanks with stuff that should not kill it, but it does. Just a little more fuel to the fire, Justin "Armornut" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVoid Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Very good post by Jason. And by most of the others too. Saying that the heavies are unhistoric is bull****. I like to play by special rules because its less about luck. And a piece of advise to everyone: no matter if the enemy has a heavy, don't give up. Actually I am more worried when i face a normal tank if my AT assets are gun. A good example is my game against armornut. He had a Churchill, a howitzer, and an Archer. I had two 75mm inf guns, a puppchen and a hetzer. My Hetzer got killed by the archer (very unlucky but this is war), my inf guns were knocked out. Luckily my puppchen killed the Churchill from 500 m(very lucky). His Archer and howitzer survived until the end, but I won because I had more infantry and I used them better too. The queen of the battlefield is infantry. Especially if equipped with SMGs. But heavies indeed can have an unbalancing effect, especially if the attacker has them. For more see my post: Fed up with Ubertank battles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 "I know of several German Kampfgruppe's who operated single & pairs of PzKpfw VI B's" Then name one. Name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Oh, I can "handle" "stuff" of any size. It is just boring as spit to never see anything but the largest hunks of "stuff" crewed by the endless veteran. It is also as much fun as having wisdom teeth removed playing historical games with people most concerned with winning or with "mine goes to 11" juvenile gamesmenship. You are of course perfectly welcome to all play chinese checkers with others who think as you do, for all I care. Just count me out. The interest of the whole affair to me is seeing how the historically used weapons can be used to best advantage, to explore the historical tactics and relationships among force types, and to get a more vivid and dynamic sense of how the war was fought than is available from reading histories. If for you it is about playing with the "cool" models you built as a kid or whatever, fine, just do that with somebody else. Another fellow referred to the Panther instead. The Panther is indeed a common vehicle, about 1/4th of the German armor. If you see a fight were the heavy armor is *all* Panthers (not mixed), and you only see that about 1/8th to 1/12th of the time (since often there would be *no* armor), then that is indeed fine. But do you? No. An occasional fight with Tiger Is is fun - scenarios especially, as opposed to QBs. Panthers occuring as the armor type encountered is fine in an occasional QB. (With halftracks, sure, but not other armor types in the same battle). Never seeing anything else, let alone Tiger IIs, Jadgtigers, and Jadgpanthers, to my mind is something I got over around the age of ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: I'll take an interesting scenario where I get beat over a boring scenario that I win any day of the week. I agree fully. I like games that come down to the wire... they are always interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net: Another fellow referred to the Panther instead. The Panther is indeed a common vehicle, about 1/4th of the German armor. If you see a fight were the heavy armor is *all* Panthers (not mixed), and you only see that about 1/8th to 1/12th of the time (since often there would be *no* armor), then that is indeed fine. But do you? No. Actually, yes. Maybe you need to change the people you play. Perhaps us 'Cesspoolers' are just a bit odd, but Heavies don't crop up that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Don't think I've ever bought anything heavier than a Panther in a PBEM game...never bought a Jumbo, never bought a Pershing, never bought a Jackson. I do alright. I don't mind setting ground rules before games, mostly because I like trying out different types of force structures. ie, using the short 75 rule doesn't just impact the kind of tanks you can buy, it also generally affects the other types of units people purchase. It's fun for me to play around with that kind of stuff. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by Major Tom: There is always a decision to be made when purchasing units. One is, "do I want to spend a lot of points on one single unit?" ... Rarely have I ever heard of anyone supporting a KT with sufficient infantry, usually based on the pure fact that they cannot afford enough supporting Infantry!You're really onto something here. Personally I find it a bit gamey/unhistorical to pick one or two each of several different AFVs for a battle, when in reality there would be a tendancy to keep platoons together. If my opponent want to use the very heavys I'd say: "fine, as long as you take at least four of them, and not more than one type...". Obviously this will chew up most of the resources that could be otherwise spent on a balanced force. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net: Then name one. Name. For details check out: Munoz, Antonio: Forgotten Legions: Obscure Combat Formations of the Waffen-SS It has some interesting Kampfgruppe organization & combat details. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 02-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 Originally posted by BlackVoid: But heavies indeed can have an unbalancing effect, especially if the attacker has them. I agree - the attacker with Übertanks is mostly disadvantaged. But is it the defenders dept that he wasted points in fast burning piles of steel? ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 PBEM is more fun and easier to setup by letting the AI choose the forces. That way, I don't get accused of being a gamey bastard until the second turn. Plus, I'm the type of guy who always buys ties that look the same. So I enjoy having the AI choose weapons I would never try on my own. Better play balance too. ------------------ Some days the sun just don't shine up a dog's behind. -- Catfish Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 17, 2001 Author Share Posted February 17, 2001 Some of you have lost my point. I do not care what you think about weather or not to use the dam things! All I care is that the baby crying stops. You can quote all the history you want, IT IS A FRICKING GAME! Therefore reality plays no part in it at all. You guys are trying to put real world rules on a GAME! I can play with any of you any way and have a good time (even though I wil likly lose). I can not have a good time when a QB is being played and the buying is unrestricted and then the other guy says that your a gamey basterd. What? Quoting the force sizes and stuff is fine, but it don't matter a drop of piss in a unrestricted buy QB. See what I am getting at? Just play, talk a little cocka, win/lose, in the end just have fun. Hence the whine about whining. Armornut (Cesspoolers; I would love to play you, any of you trash talking hounds! I will even leave all my armor at home.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 17, 2001 Author Share Posted February 17, 2001 Jason and some of you others have missed the point I was making. I was saying that there should be no crying in a: -QB -Unrestricted Buy -No other stated restrictions before hand I really do not care what you think is or is not historical, as I am not questioning that (dam it). I play historical type games alot, but unrestricted buy I go unrestricted. I am trying to ask that if your going to play the ways stated above then do not whine when you get some weird stuff. Nothing else. I would love to play any of the trash talking cesspoolers, I will even not pick any armor just for you. I like the idea of what you do (and follow the peng thread) you just can not talk trash till you've betten me! Armornut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 17, 2001 Author Share Posted February 17, 2001 Sorry about he double post, it showed I did not submit it until I signed off-line and got back on again. Armornut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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