CM Artillery is too slow!

[Gregory Deych]

Recently, I got my greedy little hands on "Encyclopedia of domestic artillery", which covers pretty much all Russian artillery from 1500 onwards. My interest doesn't stretch quite that far backwards, but...while leafing through the book I came upon a curious little table. It contained results of a trial of a new 76mm divisional gun - L-12, and 2 other existing guns (76mm 1902/30 pattern and F-22) listed for comparison. And here was an item that caught my eye:

Movement of the Gun 50m by hand:

L-12 25 seconds

1902/30 Pattern 35 seconds

F-22 not listed.

"Hmmm", said I "this seems to be a lot faster then CM guns I remember", so I ran a little test using American 76mm AT guns on a variety of surfaces, using Elite crews. On both pavement and road, it took the crews almost exactly 9 minutes to move the gun 50 meters, a huge discrepancy. I continued reading on the the next test:

Rolling the gun on a hill, with incline of 10-15 percent and length of 30 meters

L-12 6min 25 seconds

1902/30 pattern 9min 17 sec

F-22 not listed

By comparison, CM crews going up a one elevation square change (2.5 meter)a distance of 30 meters finished at about 5 minute mark.

While I was at it, I decided to replicate several other tests

Rotation

Gun 90 degrees 180deg

L-12 22 sec 25 sec

1902/30 Pn 30 sec 35 sec

F-22 45 sec 50 sec

In contract a CM 76mm gun takes exactly 1 minute to rotate 90 degrees and exactly 2 minutes to rotate 180 degrees. This obviously does not model the fact that most of the time it took to rotate a gun was to get it started.

In summary:

CM guns are much too slow moving on straightaway, and too fast going uphill. The also rotate too slowly. Some of this is may be due to the gunners at the trials not having to move ammo with the gun (the description does not specify it, at least), but still - the difference is rather dramatic. It would also play no difference in a turning test.

[This message has been edited by Gregory Deych (edited 02-18-2001).]

[Guest Rob/1]

Originally posted by Gregory Deych:

Recently, I got my greedy little hands on "Encyclopedia of domestic artillery", which covers pretty much all Russian artillery from 1500 onwards.

Remeber we are not useing Russain artillery so that is one thing you didn't point out in your post.

[Gregory Deych]

Unless Russian guns are 18 times lighter, there is still a problem.

[Guest Rommel22]

I agree, how much different can the guns be. I know they are different, but like Gregory said, by that much 25 econds vs 9 minutes. Come on!!!! This aint a picknick!

I always wondered why it took the CM gun to move that slow. In some WWII footage you see the guners moving fast as hell moving these guns.

What gives?

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[elementalwarre]

let's assume russian ww2 arty's not too different to compare to german & western allies' arty

i bet CM's time is the real time to move a gun that's ready to fire from one position to another and be ready to fire again. you

- call it in,

- undo whatever's holding the gun in place

- pack up any shells,

- get your people ready to move the gun,

- move the gun,

- position it as ordered,

- do whatever's needed to hold the gun in place

- get some shells ready

- report in as ready to fire

no doubt bullethead or others can describe in a lot more detail, but personally i think moving a damn heavy object 50 meters in 25 seconds is possible but pretty quick even if the crew's ready to pull/push a gun that's ready to move

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by elementalwarre:

i bet CM's time is the real time to move a gun that's ready to fire from one position to another and be ready to fire again. you

- call it in,

- undo whatever's holding the gun in place

- pack up any shells,

- get your people ready to move the gun,

- move the gun,

- position it as ordered,

- do whatever's needed to hold the gun in place

- get some shells ready

- report in as ready to fire

Your points are well taken. But those activities are performed only at the beginning/ending of the movement, not for every meter that the gun travels. I've recently been watching the crew of a 57mm AT gun move it along a level road. To describe their pace as leisurely hardly does it justice. You'd think they were out on an April stroll in the park with their girlfriends rather than trying to get moved and set-up under fire.

Michael

[MrWinterbottom]

Hidleyho!

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in here. Back in the days when I served in the mechanized infantry I had the pleasure of working with some 155mm SPA recruits. Well, before they "moved up" to the big guns they trained on the good, old 105's. (Moving the pieces, setting up, etc.etc.) Anyways, I have always felt that the time CM have given the soldiers to move the piece, say, 100m and set it up for a fire mission have been a bit on the leisurely side.

I was thinking that perhaps it was just me, so I'm kinda glad to see that that isn't the case... heh..

Mr. Winterbottom

[elementalwarre]

michael emrys - yeah, every meter. team has to stay in practice, you know. what better way to practice than under combat conditions

admittedly i'd think CM would sim gun movement by some delay at startup before actually moving, then a delay when they get there

however, seems like CM is instead making the actual move take as long as the whole action. yeah, at the rate they move seems like the team could grow moss on the gun

[Guest Madmatt]

I am sure those movement rate tables are based on test conditions with a totally functional limber, fully rested, well fed and motivated crew doing the pushing.

As often is the case, in the "real world" such activities become a lot harder and take much longer to achieve.

All the same those movement rate tables are interesting and I will forward this info to Steve and Charles.

Madmatt

[Guest wwb_99]

While we are on the subject of manhandling artillery pieces, I have one question about the matter:

Why can't guns reverse?

Now, I have never moved a modern artillery piece, but I have played around with a couple napoleonic era guns, and with those it is actually easier to drag them backwards than push them forwards. Not to mention it would be very logical for an ATG to fire a shot or two from the crest of a hill, then pull back before the return fire came.

WWB

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[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by elementalwarre:

admittedly i'd think CM would sim gun movement by some delay at startup before actually moving, then a delay when they get there

Exactly. That seems to be the growing consensus.

Michael

[Forever Babra]

Has anyone factored in the ammo here? Sure, me and a few drunken buds could run the gun, but who brings the ammo?

[MrWinterbottom]

Well... The way it works was that the piece is moved with the "ready-ammunition" and after you have set up, the gunner, the gunner assistant and the commander of the particular piece usually stays with the weapon while the "extra" personnel (That is the ammunition guys) humps back for the rest of the ammunition. Might hamper the rate of fire for a while if it is sustained, but atleast the weapon is able to put some hurt out.

That is of course, the theory.

In case anybody wonders about it, there were normally two ammunition handlers per weapon. One gets it out of the boxes and then hands it down. Second one removes the fuses and sets any timers and proximity fuses if needed. Then hands it to the loader, which, well, loads it.

It may seem like there are many steps to go through before anything goes bang and boom,(Especially since I havent touched what the gunner and the commander is expected to do) but it does work and I have seen amazing rate of fires coming out of weapons with well trained crews.

Well, according to my frail memory that is.

Sorry about the rant.

Mr.Winterbottom

[Guest tero]

>Why can't guns reverse?

They can IRL, but not in CM. I think that is because the reverse command is reserved for vehicles.

>Not to mention it would be very logical for an ATG to fire a shot or two from the crest of a hill, then pull back before the return fire came.

Actually, IRL in a prepared defence (if regulations were followed and there was enough time) the ATG would be assigned a primary firing position, a few secondary positions and a few decoy positions would be constructed to boot.

The primary firing position would be constructed so that there is a covered dug out for the ATG. For the Soviets that cover was in front of the actual position, for the Finns (and I expect the Germans) that cover was behind the position. You would lay in wait and when it came time to fire you would push (or pull) the piece in place, fire a few rounds and then move the piece to cover.

[Xavier]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Has anyone factored in the ammo here? Sure, me and a few drunken buds could run the gun, but who brings the ammo?

I agree. I don't know the weight of twenty rounds of 75mm but I wouldn't want to be the guy in charge of it

[Guest tero]

>I am sure those movement rate tables are based on test conditions with a totally functional limber, fully rested, well fed and motivated crew doing the pushing.

They could also be training standards to be met.

I have personally manhandeled a 45mm ATG in training. We were trained on all aspects of the gun so that if (God forbid) we had to use the piece IRL we would be acting on instinct. And that drilling included moving to and from the position and setting up. IRL we had a drill sargeant yelling to move it but the point was to be able to do the routines on instinct in seconds.

>As often is the case, in the "real world" such activities become a lot harder and take much longer to achieve.

NO ! Anybody above Recruit status and who is trained to handle the gun acts on instinct. Instead of concentration on the operations of the gun they can focus on the surroundings.

If anything they become faster after a few engagements when they learn tricks to overcome the deficiencies of the design, like to turn the entire tank to help the slow turret.

An example: the Finnish coastal arty fire control norm is to hit a target the size of a rowing boat at 2 km's by the fourth salvo using modern equipment like laser range finders. The norm for unassisted method dating back to the 30's is also the fourth salvo. That means that everybody drills until the norm is adcheived. Likewise, the gun crews drill routines and trouble shooting until they can do it in their sleep. Litterally.

[Guest tero]

>Well... The way it works was that the piece is moved with the "ready-ammunition" and after you have set up, the gunner, the gunner assistant and the commander of the particular piece usually stays with the weapon while the "extra" personnel (That is the ammunition guys) humps back for the rest of the ammunition. Might hamper the rate of fire for a while if it is sustained, but atleast the weapon is able to put some hurt out.

That is how it is done. Depending of course on the distance travelled the ammo guys might stay put and bring up ammo as needed.

Depending on the state of preparation in case we are talking about defence there might be even ready ammo stockpiled in the new position. IRL that is.

>That is of course, the theory.

Actually that is practice as well.

>Well, according to my frail memory that is.

I served in 1985-86 and I still can fieldstrip Suomi SMG, LS-26 LMG, Maxim 32 HMG and RK62 ASL blind folded. And set up a 45mm ATG for firing. It is like riding a bike....

[Olle Petersson]

Okey guys, here's my experience:

Towed 9cm recoilless ATG, 250 kg total weight for gun and carriage.

Crew of 7, including truck driver, machine gunner and SL. (So usually three or four men to handle the ATG and carry ammo.)

When manhandling the gun six HEAT rounds were brought. Packed in cases of two, each case weighted about 22 kg and was side heavy. (Extra ammo was stored in the truck.)

Movement shorter distances (~100m) between firing positions were usually at running speed. Sometimes we outran the drill searge...

Preparations between manhandled movement and firing "mode" took less than 15sec either way, preparations to truck tow took longer since the wheels had to be in correct position and tail lights and dust covers had to be put on.

Most guns in CM are heavier than this, and more ammo is brought, so perhaps it's not too slow with these aspects in mind.

However, if one could opt for man handling, with less ammo, then movement speed could increase dramatically.

Cheers

Olle

[Guest tero]

>Most guns in CM are heavier than this, and more ammo is brought, so perhaps it's not too slow with these aspects in mind.

However, if one could opt for man handling, with less ammo, then movement speed could increase dramatically.

Why not have the ammo bearers as a separate unit with an integral limber vehicle ?

Gun + crew of four (commander, gunner, loader, 1 ammo carrier) with ready ammo of say 6 (for the lighter guns) to 2 rounds (the heavies). One round ready chambered to bring the number of shots up to 7 and 3. Speed settings adjusted accordingly.

Limber team: 3-4 men (driver + carriers) carrying ~40 rounds with a vehicle (HT/ truck / horse cart / sledge / Munitionsslepper.

Unit costs go up when the carrier is added.

No-carrier option for guns remain with severely restricted movement ability.

[This message has been edited by tero (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Barleyman]

Nostalgia..

I have personally pushed a 2x23mm AA gun around a few times.

Gun crews (Even the collection on barrel-bottomers in the staff unit!) can actually move the damn thing at a brisk walking pace on a level road.

But as soon as you hit a _gentle_ slope you realize you're trying to push couple of tons of boiler plate uphill.

I just shudder thinking about moving the thing across broken terrain, but we weren't asked to do that

In any case, you should be able to move light guns along roads reasonably quickly. As long as nobody's shooting at you!

..

(I wonder if you can use "Sergei" against ground targets .. )

[illo]

so there should be delay at start of movement (to get everything ready to move).

and delay at end of move until gun is operational again.

I've heard an AT crew shooting tanks in close range with 37mm AT-gun, then moving in cover to new firing position and repeating so gun wouldnt be spotted. All this in short fight where tanks were advancing and firing against defendending infantry in a woodline.

[Forever Babra]

I'm glad somebody somewhere is still using towed pieces and can shed some light on it. I've never seen any outside of museums.

The concept of a few men carrying forward the ammo might be problematic in the CM engine. The bearers would have to be modelled, as would the ammo supply. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing it, as long as it was completely A/I controlled, but I don't know how keen C&S will be on the idea. My <u>guess</u> is not at all.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by tero:

1) Why not have the ammo bearers as a separate unit with an integral limber vehicle?

2) Gun + crew of four (commander, gunner, loader, 1 ammo carrier) with ready ammo of say 6 (for the lighter guns) to 2 rounds (the heavies). One round ready chambered to bring the number of shots up to 7 and 3.

1) That's even better, but since CM doesn't take supplies into any appreciative consideration at all I thought of it as a little too much to ask for.

2) I think you underestimate the ammo carried. The gun we used should definately be among the heavies, as it was 90mm and backblast, meaning the ammo was heavier than for regular guns. (Regular guns have about half as much propellant for each round.)

10-20 rounds for the smaller guns and half a dozen for the bigg'uns seems more appropriate.

Having one round in the breech should be a big no-no though, except for the last metre of movement when going from cover to firing position. Accidental firing while pushing/towing would be devastating for the crew.

Cheers

Olle

[The_Capt]

I'll put this discussion in the same file as "no running with an MG" which has also been hotly debated.

[MrWinterbottom]

Actually, don't even get me started on the MG issue..

>I'm glad somebody somewhere is still using towed pieces and can shed some light on it. I've never seen any outside of museums.

I will venture to say that almost all nations still use towed pieces in one capacity or other.

>The concept of a few men carrying forward the ammo might be problematic in the CM engine. The bearers would have to be modelled, as would the ammo supply. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing it, as long as it was completely A/I controlled, but I don't know how keen C&S will be on the idea. My guess is not at all.

What I was thinking about was more like that the piece gets there in good time, but after the ready-ammunition is expended the rate of fire will hurt. That would of course depend on how far the piece been moved, the quality of the personnel and all that good stuff.

So no extra modelling, just some tweaking.

Just my thoughts anyways.

Mr.Winterbottom