rexford Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 In our miniatures games Hetzers often bite the dust fairly easily if one can get any kind of shot at the upper side armor. The side superstructure is 20mm thick at an angle of 40° from vertical. Against 76mm APCBC, the following data presents effective armor resistance of 20mm at 40° against angled shots (angle measured from hull facing): 15°-110mm equivalent resistance at 0° 20°-82mm 25°-66mm 30°-60mm 35°-52mm If an M10 can get to 20° from Hetzer facing, the upper side armor is easy pickens. If a 76mm Sherman or M10 can sneak in a shot that catches view of the Hetzer upper side armor, the round has a chance to drill the Hetzer. The other vulnerable area on the Hetzer is the lower front hull area, 60mm at 40° from vertical, which resists like: 75mm APCBC-91mm at 0° 76mm APCBC-90mm at 0° If terrain doesn't block line of sight to any of the Hetzer front, the lower hull is vulnerable to 76mm hits out to a good range, and can be penetrated by 75mm Shermans at close range. Hetzers really have to be facing directly at an enemy, with the front lower hull out of view and safely behind something, to be secure (short of a shot trap hit around the mantlet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Here everybody aims at the center of mass, so the (random) chance to hit at the side wouldn't be so great. There's no aiming at vulnerable areas. There have been a few good discussions about that. Latest was about hull down King Tigers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted January 10, 2001 Author Share Posted January 10, 2001 Even with center of mass aim (the original message did not consider aimed fire), random side to side shot scatter would hit Hetzer side armor a fair number of times beyond 500m. Hetzer is: a. not so good in long range shoot-outs if enemy armor can sneak in hits on side armor b. very vulnerable at short range if lower front hull is fully exposed c. probability of hitting side armor on angled shots increases if Hetzer is moving, due to increased side-to-side scatter These are observations from miniatures play with system that models lateral and vertical scatter based on firing test data. Conclusion is not that Hetzers are sitting ducks, but they have definite weaknesses that 60mm at 60° upper front hull will not totally cover. Occasional kills can be obtained thru side armor. 60mm at 60° armor resists 76mm APCBC attack like 180mm at 0°, and is even beyond 76 HVAP (60mm at 0° resists HVAP like 258mm at 0°, based on U.S. test data). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Hei, Rexford! I'm interested in table-top games, do you have a club,just in case.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Rexford wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hetzers really have to be facing directly at an enemy, with the front lower hull out of view and safely behind something, to be secure (short of a shot trap hit around the mantlet).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Very true. This is demonstrated in CM very well. As you say, even a slightly off center stance can mean trouble due to the VERY thin side armor. And some people wondered why the Hetzer was so "cheap" to purchase Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 I was wondering if the game takes inclines into consideration when it comes to armor slope. What I mean is if you have a Hetzer parked on an incline of 10 degrees and someone shoots it from the front and hits the upper hull will the armor effectively have a 70 degree slope? And how about the arc of the shot? If a slow projectile that is shot with quite a bit of arc hits this same armor will the effective slope of the armor be reduced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Subvet: I was wondering if the game takes inclines into consideration when it comes to armor slope. What I mean is if you have a Hetzer parked on an incline of 10 degrees and someone shoots it from the front and hits the upper hull will the armor effectively have a 70 degree slope?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes. Try it out for yourself. Make a map with a very high hill. Put a Panther up on the hill, and a Sherm 76 down below. The sherm's liklihood of a kill will be low or ok. Now put the Panther down below, and the sherm on the hill. The sherm will be firing down, and that will cancel out a good deal of the panther's armor slope. The sherm's liklihood of a kill will be ok or good. However, don't assume that the best thing to do would be to always keep tanks on hilltops. Their flanks will probably be exposed, and even a stuart can take out a panther from the flank. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Hi people... I am considering getting the combat command game but first i would like to know the difference between it and tac ops... some one please help me make up my mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt.Tom Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Weak side armor is the Hetzers middle name, I once lost one to an infantry squad with spit balls, right through the side. Seriously thought, has anyone ever used them to attack and had any success? I tried it in two games and got knocked out fast. Pvt.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted January 10, 2001 Author Share Posted January 10, 2001 We ran our spreadsheet with an M10 firing on a Hetzer at 1000m, 25° firing angle to hull front and Hetzer blocked to halfway up the lower front hull. 20% of hits struck and penetrated Hetzer side armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted January 11, 2001 Author Share Posted January 11, 2001 Hetzers are real nice in a town where access to their side armor is blocked by buildings or rubble. On the attack, it is exactly as noted, wait until they expose a little side plate and then .......... Here's some questions about CM distances and tank unit movement. Are the distances and vehicle sizes to scale? A Sherman platoon had tanks spread all over the place trying to flank a Tiger I and it seemed like the Shermans were several hundred meters apart, maybe 500m or 600m as they moved around a village. Would a Sherman platoon commander let his tanks get out of sight and several hundred meters away? I read where the african-american tank units in WW II were noted for sending tanks this way and that and coming at the Germans from unexpected angles, all at once. It seems that some tankers went far distances on their own and kept a coordinated attack. Does CM put limitations on how far tanks can stray from the overall unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 No, CM vehicles can stray wherever they please, happily. They aren't grouped together as units the way infantry platoons are, for example. ------------------ War does not determine who is right--only who is left. --Bertrand Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: Hetzers are real nice in a town where access to their side armor is blocked by buildings or rubble. On the attack, it is exactly as noted, wait until they expose a little side plate and then .......... Here's some questions about CM distances and tank unit movement. Are the distances and vehicle sizes to scale? A Sherman platoon had tanks spread all over the place trying to flank a Tiger I and it seemed like the Shermans were several hundred meters apart, maybe 500m or 600m as they moved around a village. Would a Sherman platoon commander let his tanks get out of sight and several hundred meters away? I read where the african-american tank units in WW II were noted for sending tanks this way and that and coming at the Germans from unexpected angles, all at once. It seems that some tankers went far distances on their own and kept a coordinated attack. Does CM put limitations on how far tanks can stray from the overall unit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey Rexford, I really enjoy your posts, BUT now that V1.1 is out you should really actually SIT down and play the damn game!. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy all the armour penetration ballistics analysis we chat about here, but you should really get on the ball and play some of us head to head via TCP/IP. This is a Great Game, we can send out units ANYWHERE we want all over the map if we choose, plenty of freedom there for sure! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted January 11, 2001 Author Share Posted January 11, 2001 I'am usually safer hiding behind a calculator then making grand blunders on the battlefield. Can't understand why my Tiger II in one battle, and a Panther in another, rotated their turrets to the vehicle rear and then charged the enemy! What did I do???!!! The question about spread out Shermans was based on a game this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt.Tom: has anyone ever used them to attack and had any success? I tried it in two games and got knocked out fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sometimes. Good for taking out gun positions. Or in the same ambush role as when defending. Most defenders will eventually bring out their tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronson Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 I play as the Allies alot, and I hate seeing those damn Hetzers on the map. Seems like they always give me a hard time. Of course the fact that I suck has almost nothing to do with the fact that I can't kill a damn Hetzer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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