CM article - Graphics

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Pray tell - is that compassion or naked self-interest?

Errrmm..... I feel his pain... just don't want it dripping all over that nice clean newsgroup, that's all! IT's not a bad place. Nice to see Fionn around (even if GB says that he should shut up because he doesn't kow what he's talking about).

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Compassion:

Errrmm..... I feel his pain... just don't want it dripping all over that nice clean newsgroup, that's all! IT's not a bad place. Nice to see Fionn around (even if GB says that he should shut up because he doesn't kow what he's talking about).

Fionn told me that GB said he had the name of a girl. Now we want to know who GB really is. It is narrowed down quite a bit now, but the question still has many people working nights.

[Bruno Weiss]

...and so the orders went out, MI-5, OSS, specialized Ranger, and all French, Polish, and Norwegian resistance units were placed on alert and given the highest Priority.

"Locate and identify codename: Gunny Bunny."

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Compassion:

Nice to see Fionn around (even if GB says that he should shut up because he doesn't kow what he's talking about).

Who is this Fionn person anyway? His name sounds like that of a girl, thus GunnyBunny spoketh. Therefore it must be true

Man - I wonder if education (any, even from the University of S.C.) would solve his problem. Probably not.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK folks, this might sound odd coming from me after my previous comments, but GB is conforming to basic social norms so I think it would be nice to let up on him now. Of course, this is conditional on future behavior

Bruno and Thomm, I need to clarify things. The minimum 3D card for CM2 will be 16MB, optimal will be 32MB. People can, of course, go nuts and choke a 64MB card, but that isn't something we are going to do.

I said, incorrectly, that we were going to support 32bit color. This is NOT correct. It was something that Charles and I had decided was a definite for the engine rewrite, but it is totally not possible to do for CM2. First of all, it would require a total rewrite of the graphics code since it is all coded for 16bit. Obviously, that is a lot of work. But more importantly, a move to 32bit for CM would be a BAD idea at this point. Remember that 32bit images take up TWICE as much VRAM as a 16bit image. Keep in mind that people that have loaded up on the high res mods can max out a 32MB card right now. So instantly this change would REQUIRE a 32MB card to have the same quality that CM has now, or a 64MB card to have a bunch of mods, and no card to do more than that. So no go.

Sorry for the misinformation. Charles and I have been talking about what goes into CM2 and CMII a lot lately and I just got things flipflopped.

Steve

[GriffinCheng+]

Hey BTS,

Personally I don't care about 32-bit color, my soreing eyes cannot tell the difference, they all look good to me.

Remeber the old time when people upgrade the computer with each major release of Wing Comamnder series (at least up to WC3)? I don't think BTS right now is Origin 7 years ago.

Hence I think BTS should focus on making CM2 a hit rather than handling requests on CM Mk.2

Griffin.

------------------

"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay Kemosabi, thanks for clarifying. I got a 64meg card meself so I ain't too worried about it. Like I been saying, with all the mods loaded up and 4xFSAA, it's as pertty as a picture postcard anyway. Whatever you guys decide is best suits me fine. Now, about them horses...

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[karch]

I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.. but I really wish you would reduce the REQUIRED VRAM requirements to 8MB.

BTS, you have been talking over and over about not alienating current users...

I have an iMac and iBook at home I play CM on constantly. Both of them have 8 Meg of VRAM and run CM great. As you know by your tests, my iMac will out render most PII and PIII systems. If you don't allow a reduced VRAM install, you will have just eliminated EVERY iMac and iBook owner out there.

I'm pretty sure more home users of Macs have either an iBook or iMac instead of a G4 with more VRAM and the ability to add a new card.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure all us iMac users can still play Combat Mission. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, the requirement could be a Pentium 5 with 64 gigabytes of RAM and 128MB of VRAM. I couldn't play either version.... and since I just bought my iBook last month.... I won't be getting a new Mac for at least 2 years.

Please let us know what your take on smaller VRAM machines is. My Mac has plenty of horsepower, just not the VRAM. CM looks awsome to me as it is... I'm more interested in the game than the graphics.

regards,

Scott

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by karch:

I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.. but I really wish you would reduce the REQUIRED VRAM requirements to 8MB.

BTS, you have been talking over and over about not alienating current users...

I have an iMac and iBook at home I play CM on constantly. Both of them have 8 Meg of VRAM and run CM great. As you know by your tests, my iMac will out render most PII and PIII systems. If you don't allow a reduced VRAM install, you will have just eliminated EVERY iMac and iBook owner out there.

I'm pretty sure more home users of Macs have either an iBook or iMac instead of a G4 with more VRAM and the ability to add a new card.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure all us iMac users can still play Combat Mission. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, the requirement could be a Pentium 5 with 64 gigabytes of RAM and 128MB of VRAM. I couldn't play either version.... and since I just bought my iBook last month.... I won't be getting a new Mac for at least 2 years.

Please let us know what your take on smaller VRAM machines is. My Mac has plenty of horsepower, just not the VRAM. CM looks awsome to me as it is... I'm more interested in the game than the graphics.

regards,

Scott

A 16mb minimum VRAM usually means that an 8mb user can get away with it IF they give up a few things. Plus the early Imacs had a great 8mb ATI mobility graphics chip, and the PowerPC processer requirement set at the same MHZ rating of the Pentium underestimates the PPC's power. I play CM on a G4 while Word, IE, Photoshop, and SPSS are open with no hits, but a PC user who has office booted under CM will see a hit if they have a processor under 800mhz (I know, my 650 mhz Dell cannot handle CM and Office at the same time.

Also, with the coming of OSX you will find that the graphics engine is an order of magnitude better than the 9x engine -- capability that will be able to be harnessed for future game designs, keeping your IMac in business for a while.

[GriffinCheng+]

Slappy,

That is the problem with PC Office, is it Office 2K you are running, that is a resource hog.

You know, I have a good PB but since it has a ATI MobileRage-128 with only 8MB VRAM, I cannot display most hi-res mod nor any grid terrian.

That is another thing BTS has considered when not going to fancy eye candies.

Griffin.

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

I play CM on a G4 while Word, IE, Photoshop, and SPSS are open with no hits, but a PC user who has office booted under CM will see a hit if they have a processor under 800mhz (I know, my 650 mhz Dell cannot handle CM and Office at the same time.

------------------

"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[The Commissar]

Karch,

Can't you buy an upgrade for your RAM? Im sure you can find someplace that sells an 8MB chip for Max users.

For BTS to appeal to the lowest common denomenator is as damaging as appealing to its highest. If the games stands where it is, people will criticize it.

Go to this web site:

www.pricewatch.com

Then, find the "Memory" list and click on "System".

Scroll ALL THE WAY down the list that pops up, and you will see "Memory for iMac". Ive found that pricewatch has very nice prices which are certaintly affordable, even to the cheapest Mac user

Hope that helped.

Cheers!

------------------

"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[GriffinCheng+]

Oh, I think Karch is talking about VRAM, memory used by the ATI video chip. I am afraid that kinda is not upgradable for notebooks.

Griffin.

Originally posted by The Commissar:

Karch,

Can't you buy an upgrade for your RAM? Im sure you can find someplace that sells an 8MB chip for Max users.

------------------

"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by The Commissar:

Karch,

Can't you buy an upgrade for your RAM? Im sure you can find someplace that sells an 8MB chip for Max users.

For BTS to appeal to the lowest common denomenator is as damaging as appealing to its highest. If the games stands where it is, people will criticize it.

Go to this web site:

www.pricewatch.com

Then, find the "Memory" list and click on "System".

Scroll ALL THE WAY down the list that pops up, and you will see "Memory for iMac". Ive found that pricewatch has very nice prices which are certaintly affordable, even to the cheapest Mac user

Hope that helped.

Cheers!

The oldest Imacs have an 8mb Mobility chip.

Office 97 and 2000 both load parts of their code on start up on a PC, and short of hacking config.sys they will not dynamically load modules for just word etc.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by karch:

I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.. but I really wish you would reduce the REQUIRED VRAM requirements to 8MB.

BTS, you have been talking over and over about not alienating current users...

I have an iMac and iBook at home I play CM on constantly. Both of them have 8 Meg of VRAM and run CM great. As you know by your tests, my iMac will out render most PII and PIII systems. If you don't allow a reduced VRAM install, you will have just eliminated EVERY iMac and iBook owner out there.

I'm pretty sure more home users of Macs have either an iBook or iMac instead of a G4 with more VRAM and the ability to add a new card.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure all us iMac users can still play Combat Mission. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, the requirement could be a Pentium 5 with 64 gigabytes of RAM and 128MB of VRAM. I couldn't play either version.... and since I just bought my iBook last month.... I won't be getting a new Mac for at least 2 years.

Please let us know what your take on smaller VRAM machines is. My Mac has plenty of horsepower, just not the VRAM. CM looks awsome to me as it is... I'm more interested in the game than the graphics.

regards,

Scott

This may sound rather silly to some here, but I have been one of the people advocating better graphics and more eye-candy.

BUT I only have a 400mHz G3 Powerbook with ONLY 8 megs of VRAM in it. And I don't think it is up gradable.

Why do I want more eye candy?

(other mac users will correct me if I'm wrong here but)

8 megs of VRAM on a Mac is not the same as 8 megs of VRAM on a PC. Its complicated and its technical but I do not fear their new 16 meg VRAM minimum at all. In fact I welcome it.

Mac's were designed from the ground up for to be ideally suited for a graphic user interface. I'm not sure exactly how to explain this (I should know because I consider my self a Mac tech geek) but that 8 megs VRAM limitation you are so concerned about is really not the same on a mac because of better graphics handling capabilities inherent in the mac and (I guess this might be questionable) I think other non VRAM ram can somehow? take some of the load off the VRAM and still make it look good and work fast.

More VRAM is not the be all and end all of the how great graphics look good on a Mac.

Slapdragon? anyone else want to help me out here? Mac don't need 32 megs of dedicated VRAM to look and act the same way as a PC to show graphics.

I'm sure Steve and Charles will not leave 8 meg VRAM mac users out in the cold. I think it is probably fine for them to say their new VRAM minimum is 16 Megs VRAM for a video card on a PC, but the same Mac with a build in 8 megs of VRAM should have no problem.

I do wish I could explain this in a more techincally sophisticated way.

Anyone else?

If you are a tech geek mac user and you have only 8 meg of VRAM on your PowerBook are you worried about the 16 meg VRAM min for CM2?

I'm not.

(for instance....

Take the fastest BEST new laptop Apple Makes

the recently annouced Titanium G4 laptop

http://www.apple.com/powerbook/graphics.html

this right now is the FASTEST best laptop money can buy for about $3,500.00 US

Guess what??

It ONLY has 8 Megs of VRAM, but here's what Apple says about Graphics acceleration:

"Take the new multiplayer melee combat game

Rune, for example. A visceral action-adventure

game that combines stunning graphics, Norse

mythology and a generous dollop of pure

fantasy, Rune requires tremendous graphics

processing horsepower to be seen in all its

glory. And, turbocharged by the ATI RAGE

Mobility 128 graphics controller — with an

advanced architecture that delivers

spectacular 3D graphics in millions of colors

— the PowerBook G4 comes through for you,

and then some. In fact, when you become the

strapping young Viking warrior Ragnar and

embark on your mission to confront the dark

forces with your broadsword in hand, you’ll

be very glad you took your PowerBook G4

with you.

Game fans, start your engines

When you’re in the mood to enjoy an adrenal

rush between projects — lurching through a

virtual world of stone corridors, shall we say,

and keeping a sharp lookout for what’s

lurking around the next corner — the

PowerBook G4 really comes into its own. And

with its 15.2-inch active-matrix screen and

8MB of video memory for displaying millions of

colors, the PowerBook G4 serves up a visual

feast of special effects."

-tom w

[GriffinCheng+]

Great post tom_w.

Yep the Titanium PB is also announced in Hong Kong here and it looks, classy but reminds me of Fujisu Lifebook.

What will be it "codename"? I figure out that my PB G3 is aka "Pismo" when I am figuring out how to install LinuxPPC 2K.

Enough OT.

Does MacOS use QuckDraw as its underlying UI graphics engine anymore? This is what I remmeber back in the days of Classic Mac.

Charles could shed some lights on this one.

But the baseline is, many hi-res mod cannot be displayed on 8MB VRAM.

If anybody isn't noticing, we are converting this into a Mac thread from a GeForce thread.

Griffin.

------------------

"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Guest Big Time Software]

Griffin wrote:

Personally I don't care about 32-bit color, my soreing eyes cannot tell the difference, they all look good to me.

Yes, you are correct. 16bit is just as pleasing to the eye as 32bit. HOWEVER, there are some neat special effects you can do with 32bit that you can not do with 16bit. The big one is that you can have much better transparant effects than you can now. And I think the speed hit for them is about the same.

Karch:

BTS, you have been talking over and over about not alienating current users...

We can only do so much We have to keep moving forward. Our specs for CM1 were on the low side, and our specs for CM2 will be right in the middle. 16MB cards have been standard, for all but laptops, for well over a year now. By the time CM2 rolls out the door it will have been 2 years with about a year for 32MB cards being the new standard.

At some point we MUST leave behind the old and go with the new. The 8MB card should work, just like the 4MB card works now, but the graphics will be of reduced quality.

There is simply no way for us to win on this issue. If we move forward we leave people behind. If we don't move forward people leave us behind. We just have to balance thigns to make sure the most number of people stay with us. That is why we ignore calls to make 32MB cards the minimum. It would be suicide to do this, even in a year's time.

Steve

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by GriffinCheng+:

Great post tom_w.

Yep the Titanium PB is also announced in Hong Kong here and it looks, classy but reminds me of Fujisu Lifebook.

What will be it "codename"? I figure out that my PB G3 is aka "Pismo" when I am figuring out how to install LinuxPPC 2K.

Enough OT.

Does MacOS use QuckDraw as its underlying UI graphics engine anymore? This is what I remmeber back in the days of Classic Mac.

Charles could shed some lights on this one.

But the baseline is, many hi-res mod cannot be displayed on 8MB VRAM.

If anybody isn't noticing, we are converting this into a Mac thread from a GeForce thread.

Griffin.

Quickdraw is still the API, but Quartz will be replacing it as soon as X ships. In future Mac versions of applications calls to Quartz will off load some of the work from the main processor to altivec units in G4 and to the BSD kernal, so even people running classic will get a boost from that engine.

[karch]

Thanks for the response.

Yes I realize that you must move forward.. As much as I love the Mac, I guess I wish they shipped with more VRAM. the new iMacs coming out using AGP video will only be shipping with 8meg still... so as for leaving behind old machines... 2/3rds of all Macs sold ship with 8Meg of VRAM. iMacs and iBooks.

The thing about the AGP machines is that they can use some of the system memory for VRAM... but not for any older machines.

Thanks for the message and as long as I can play even without hi res fog and smoke... or have to use lower res graphics, it's worth it to me. I love this game for how it works as well as how it looks.

Scott

[This message has been edited by karch (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

8 megs of VRAM on a Mac is not the same as 8 megs of VRAM on a PC. Its complicated and its technical but I do not fear their new 16 meg VRAM minimum at all. In fact I welcome it.

More VRAM is not the be all and end all of the how great graphics look good on a Mac.

Slapdragon? anyone else want to help me out here? Mac don't need 32 megs of dedicated VRAM to look and act the same way as a PC to show graphics.

Tom, I think you have that right. I run the game using some hi-res mods (but not grass) and gunslinger's subdued mods on my iMac (DV SE G3/400, 256MB RAM, 8MB ATI card) and have been told it looks and handles better or at least as good as a 32MB Geforce. I also run it without mods on a tangerine iBook (4MB VRAM, 192 MB RAM, G3/300) and it runs just fine. The only problems I have a lockups when displaying high quality smoke, when there is a lot of it, on both machines. Other than that - I don't fear a 16MB minimum for the iMac at all, and would be surprised if the iBook could not handle it.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Gunny Bunny]

Originally posted by karch:

Thanks for the response.

Yes I realize that you must move forward.. As much as I love the Mac, I guess I wish they shipped with more VRAM. the new iMacs coming out using AGP video will only be shipping with 8meg still... so as for leaving behind old machines... 2/3rds of all Macs sold ship with 8Meg of VRAM. iMacs and iBooks.

The thing about the AGP machines is that they can use some of the system memory for VRAM... but not for any older machines.

Thanks for the message and as long as I can play even without hi res fog and smoke... or have to use lower res graphics, it's worth it to me. I love this game for how it works as well as how it looks.

Scott

[This message has been edited by karch (edited 02-01-2001).]

This may help:

http://www.nvidia.com/Products/GeForce2MX.nsf/

[Gremlin]

Regarding 32-bit color, it's not merely special effects that benefit, but colors in general tend to appear significantly richer, deeper, and more vibrant.

***

One thing that might help these discussions, at least on the more abstract end, is not to create a (false) dichotomy between "gameplay" and graphics, as if the experience of playing the game can be divorced from its visual presentation. How about talking about choices between improved graphics and added "game content" or improved "game mechanics"? That might clarify some of these debates.

------------------

New to Combat Mission?

Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Gremlin:

One thing that might help these discussions, at least on the more abstract end, is not to create a (false) dichotomy between "gameplay" and graphics, as if the experience of playing the game can be divorced from its visual presentation. How about talking about choices between improved graphics and added "game content" or improved "game mechanics"? That might clarify some of these debates.

I think this is very sensible, because it would focus the mind of the debaters on resource constraints and that the over-arching goal of CMBO is to be a realistic simulation of world war two combat (well, last time I checked, and as far as this can be achieved within a game). Graphics are certainly crucial to achieving this, but they are not a goal in itself. The same goes for CPU-cycle hogging algorithms that determine penetrations and hits, and for improvements to the AI. BTS has managed to get a combination of these three that has achieved the goal, and has most people here ecstatic.

To create/perpetuate the dichotomy, either graphics or realism, would be quite foolish IMO. I am sure I have done that a few times myself, but I shall try to be better in the future.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

There is simply no way for us to win on this issue. If we move forward we leave people behind. If we don't move forward people leave us behind. We just have to balance thigns to make sure the most number of people stay with us. That is why we ignore calls to make 32MB cards the minimum. It would be suicide to do this, even in a year's time.

Steve

Music to my ears...

Jeff

[karch]

Originally posted by Gunny Bunny:

This may help:

http://www.nvidia.com/Products/GeForce2MX.nsf/

GB, thanks for the link. I do know of the card and am looking at a Radeon or nvidia card for my G4 at work. (we just sold nvidia software to manage workorders at one of their plants and some lease management software). But iMacs and iBook and G3 laptops have 8 Meg of VRAM soldered onto the MB and it cannot be upgraded. Price to pay I guess. Thanks anyway though.

I did just look at specs on the new iMacs coming out. They use AGP graphics and can use system memory when it runs out of VRAM. A very slick trick.

scott karch

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by karch:

GB, thanks for the link. I do know of the card and am looking at a Radeon or nvidia card for my G4 at work. (we just sold nvidia software to manage workorders at one of their plants and some lease management software). But iMacs and iBook and G3 laptops have 8 Meg of VRAM soldered onto the MB and it cannot be upgraded. Price to pay I guess. Thanks anyway though.

I did just look at specs on the new iMacs coming out. They use AGP graphics and can use system memory when it runs out of VRAM. A very slick trick.

scott karch

Hi Karch

"They use AGP graphics and can use system memory when it runs out of VRAM. A very slick trick."

I thought ALL iMacs and all iBooks could do this trick.

I play CM with all the new high res mods on a Tangerine iBook with only 8 megs of VRAM and it looks great. I think that all macs produced in the last year or two since the orignal iMac came out can do this little trick because they are VERY clever those Apple computer designers.

I don't think we as Mac users need to worry about that 16 megs VRAM minimum.

-tom w