How an M8 ruined my day

[Ronson]

I always buy an M8 sometimes two. I took out a buttoned Panther with a flank shot (at very close range). But I would never try to go head to head with the big tanks, 9 out of 10 times the M8 will lose.

[The Oak]

I too had heard of the infamous M8, and I never believed it could be such a powerful vehicle. Then I saw one take out two of my Panthers that had just knocked out 5 Shermans. The M8 just ran between both of them, then proceeded to hit each one in the turret side before they could traverse. I was amazed at the quickness and firepower of such a small vehicle. I now fear them more than Fireflys........

[Guest Napoleon1944]

M8 Info:

http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/USA/ArmoredCars.htm

[KiwiJoe]

I took out a vet JagDTiger with a reg M8 in a PBEM once. Flank shot at 500m. Was so sweet

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Some people (read: ubertankmeisters) may consider the tactic to be gamey, but it is not a game-breaking tactic. In fact the german player is better placed to use this tactic because of the choice of three armoured cars and 2 hafltracks. Furthermore, they have a cheap and effective counter to this tactic by placing a 20mm AA gun on each flank...

[Vanir]

To those who think the M8s guns is too powerful/accurate: What data do you have that shows this is so?

To those who think the M8s armor is too thick: What data do you have that shows this is so?

To those who think the M8 should be vulnerable to small arms fire: The same could be said of the German SPW 234 ACs. Be careful what you wish for.

To those who think the M8 is too cheap: The Puma is the exact same price as the M8 (73 pts), and has thicker armor, a better gun, and is only slightly slower. It is somewhat vulnerable to the .50 cal. MG, but it is not BTSs fault the Germans did not field an anti-armor MG.

My advice to "I only play Germans" players is to get over your love affair with German tanks and start using superior tactics to win your battles instead of relying on thick armor and a big gun to do it for you.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 01-09-2001).]

[poolman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

The M8 is not a super tank, your flanks were just exposed, and it could have been an M18, an M5, or any other small fast flanker. The Panzercheck or a reserve with more mobility was what was needed, since infantry wont always engage enemy armor with their organic weapons. Also the allies played correctly in the game by always keeping a mobile reserve for exploiting mistakes. The tactic also was not gamey, since M18s racked up a 10 to 1 kill ratio of tanks killed to lost Hellcats doing exactly what you described, and the M8 was designed for exactly the same mission (although more normally used to screen against recon and flanking forces).

Something else German Players need to recognize is that their forces are not invulnerable, and it is possible to win playing the US. There is something like 40 threads that want the 37mm armed US tanks slowed down, their guns hobbled, and their armor decreased, along with another 40 which want invulnerable German tanks. Henri's situation shows how many of the seemingly powerful and very cheap German units can get into trouble by the smaller, faster allied units getting into the hen house.

BTW -- great story!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said Slap

[Dittohead]

As I said in my other thread it is totally unrealistic for certain wheeled AC to just drive around HMG-42's and not be shot at because as the game is currently modeled, there is no way to knock them out with MG fire.

Gee hans look - an M-8 is killing everything. Hold your fire those tires look pretty tough.

[GriffinCheng+]

Well, for British, Dialmer (sp?) AC works the same, if not better. However, as others mentioned, HT and infantry are the worst enemy for these AC. However, they are just like other AFVs, they are not invinciblie, their use and survival depend on how you handle them, with a little luck.

IMO, anybody who think German panzers are "ubertanks" should read this thread.

BTW, Henri, how bout a TCP game or 2 in the weekend?

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GriffinCheng+:

BTW, Henri, how bout a TCP game or 2 in the weekend?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, we could continue out present pbem game on TCPIP and/or start a new one. Do you have ICQ? It makes it easy to contact people in real time. I don't have my number here, butif you send me an email, I can give it to you (or you can do a search on my email address with ICQ).We can also meet on Matt's chat room, which I check out regularly.

Henri

[Jeff Heidman]

Who are all these people who think that German tanks should never be destroyed? They get referred to a lot, but I am not sure that I have ever seen someone actually make that claim. Could someone point one out for me?

As far as the M8 goes, there are plenty of ways to limit their usefulness. Not the least of which is any one of the German ACs with a 20mm gun, or the 20mm Flak guns (powerful and cheap), or panzerfausts, etc., etc., etc.

If anything, the Germans are better able to defend against this kind of thing than the Americans. Almost every squad out there is toting a potent AT weapon around.

Jeff Heidman

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Who are all these people who think that German tanks should never be destroyed? They get referred to a lot, but I am not sure that I have ever seen someone actually make that claim. Could someone point one out for me?

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, when you start playing enough you are bound to run into them. They only play Germans, they get really mad when any of their heavies get geeked, and usually they are not much fun to play. I ran into my first at Sun Coast Skirmishes something like 15 years ago.

The way you usually know them here is they start out a thread like this:

My Panther was killed by a Sherman 75, BTS please make the Sherman 75 less powerful, then they turn Troll when anyone suggests that perhaps the game is not at fault but they are. Vanir was just reacting to the trend to try and dumb down allied vehicles while beefing up German vehicles without any good evidence that anything is worng (and indeed, lots of evidence that the game works pretty good now).

Of course, this whole discussion is dangerous because it brings out the trolls like nothing else.

[Henri]

Since I started this thread, I had better make a few clarifications.

First, I was in no way complaining that the M8 was too strong, nor that the way that my opponent used it was gamey; as a matter of fact, as I said, I thought that the way that he pulled a draw out of a sure loss impressed me mightlily.

Second, there are circumstances that favored the M8's incursion: my opponent simultaneously launched his last-ditch offensive at the same time, which led me to target his attacking infantry with my artillery, instead of turning around to face the oncoming M8.

And the infantry through which he went without being shot at had just finished expending all their AT capability immobilizing and killing a Jumbo while being shot at by it and another immobilized Jumbo right behind it, and were in the process of trying to move rapidly to the center where they had abandoned their position as a reserve in order to deal with the Jumbo.Although I don't remember for sure, the nerby MG was possibly ordered to fire on the infantry instead of at the M8.

I did not recognize the M8 as a serious threat until it began to kill my backfield, being too focused on repulsing my opponent's threat to the victory flag.

My opponent exploited my over-confidence by a well-coordinated and well-timed attack that caught me off-balance and exploited my over-confidence that for all practical purposes, the game was already over.

Henri

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Who are all these people who think that German tanks should never be destroyed? They get referred to a lot, but I am not sure that I have ever seen someone actually make that claim. Could someone point one out for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear! I have been scratching my head over that one too. One thing is clear is it's the same people repeatedly making that claim.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't worry, when you start playing enough you are bound to run into them. They only play Germans, they get really mad when any of their heavies get geeked, and usually they are not much fun to play. I ran into my first at Sun Coast Skirmishes something like 15 years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty ingenius what? I have been playing CM since the Beta came out and have an address list of over 100 people I have played in that time, not one has fit your neat stereotype.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Of course, this whole discussion is dangerous because it brings out the trolls like nothing else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, you have a *funny* defense mechanism ingrained, damned convenient.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Who are all these people who think that German tanks should never be destroyed? They get referred to a lot, but I am not sure that I have ever seen someone actually make that claim. Could someone point one out for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You will not find many that say "I have a German tank, and it should never be able to be destroyed". It is only slightly more subtle than this.

As someone who has been playing and making wargames for most of my life, I can say with absolute certainty that there is a pro-German bias in general, but specifically when it comes to tanks. More specifically when it comes to tanks with cat like names.

Since releasing the first Beta Demo we have been bombarded by complaints that this or that German tank is too weak or this or that Allied tank is too strong. I would say for every one person complaining that an Allied tank is not strong enough there are 100 complaints that a German tank is not strong enough. And almost all of the "hissy fits" when a significant vehicle is destroyed, due to bad tactics, comes from German players.

Do some searches on this BBS and you will find all sorts of "This is total BS!!! I lost a King Tiger to a freaking Sherman 75!! BTS, you have GOT TO FIX THIS!!!". Many have even asked us to change gun and armor values because "they just don't feel right" as is. Then we dig into it a bit more and find out that the Sherman was hulldown 250m away and to the side. The player had no infantry around his KT, nor any other supporting arms worth speaking of. Once this is pointed out the person goes away (sometimes stating that he needs to learn from the mistake) only to be replaced by someone else doing the same thing shortly thereafter.

I can not think of even one example of someone with an Allied tank complaining like this, but there are litterally dozens of examples of German players griping about losing vehicles. This is partially because Allied players have unrealistically low expectations for what their vehicles can do vs. the German stuff.

Then there are the multiplayer guys that refuse to play as anything but the Germans in perfect weather on flat open maps. They are out there as reported by several people with no axe to grind. These guys only "play to win" (instead of "playing to win") and would gladly not play if they don't get their way with game setup. As far as I know there isn't an equivelant Allied type player. And again, this slant has been around long before CM came about, so this is nothing new for competitive players.

Jeff, although you apparently do not see this reality (and it is out there, not just CM related) it doesn't mean it isn't there. I used to be one of the "über German" guys myself, so I know first hand that this group exists. Thankfully, I grew out of this years ago

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

JoePrivate:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> have been playing CM since the Beta came out and have an address list of over 100 people I have played in that time, not one has fit your neat stereotype.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe... guess you missed a HUGE thread where a BBS newbie was asking for some advice about how to deal with a guy he was playing against. This was a long discussion and the guy he was playing against fit this definition 100%. He only wanted to play as the Germans, in perfect weather, with few trees, on flat maps, in late 1944. Many people gave the guy advice, but after 2 or 3 games like this most of us were just advising him to stop playing the guy.

Steve

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hehe... guess you missed a HUGE thread where a BBS newbie was asking for some advice about how to deal with a guy he was playing against. This was a long discussion and the guy he was playing against fit this definition 100%. He only wanted to play as the Germans, in perfect weather, with few trees, on flat maps, in late 1944. Many people gave the guy advice, but after 2 or 3 games like this most of us were just advising him to stop playing the guy.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes , I must have missed it or more likely saw it for what it was and ignored it. Really though, the majority on this board and the people I play, are concerned about the historical accuracy (of both sides!) in CM and how it is portrayed in play. These vague references and innuendos of German only players and their 'influence' doesn't sync with the overall impression and is just a bit much for any intelligent person.

[Jeff Heidman]

The problem is that this stereotype gets invoked every single time there is any discussion about German vehicles.

I do not doubt that these people exist, I just think it is unfair to paint anyone with a question about how the Germans are modelled in this game as being one of them.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. People claim that German armor was not all the great, and that its reputation is overly enhanced by German uber-tank lovers, and if you disagree with that, then, why, you must be a German uber-tank lover, and part of the problem to begin with!

It is beginnig to get so that it is difficult to even discuss the issues of German/Allied armor on this board because as soon as you say something might be off in anything other than a pro-German way, people instantly start talking about the uber-tank lobby.

If someone shows up ranting about their King Tiger getting waxed by a lowly Sherman, point them at a FAQ, or correct them. Show them why their argument is wrong, and leave their motive out of it.

The problem is that as soon as someone, anyone, makes a reference to this supposed pro-German lobby, they are making a reference to motive, and not argument. That is an ad hominem attack, attacking the persons perceived motive instead of their argument, and is never constructive, not to mention it being logically unsound.

The real problem is that this fallacious attack is trotted out way, way too often. For every person who complains about that side shot into their KT, it seems like there are plenty of people with perfectly valid arguments about relative merits of vehicles who get painted with that brush. There might be some Germanophiles around, but they are vastly outnumbered by people who just want the game to be right.

Jeff Heidman

[Polar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Something else German Players need to recognize is that their forces are not invulnerable, and it is possible to win playing the US. There is something like 40 threads that want the 37mm armed US tanks slowed down, their guns hobbled, and their armor decreased, along with another 40 which want invulnerable German tanks. Henri's situation shows how many of the seemingly powerful and very cheap German units can get into trouble by the smaller, faster allied units getting into the hen house.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravo!!!!

This apparently needs to be said every few days to shake the German players out of their funk.

Sometimes I feel like the GErman players think is all they have to do to win is to chose the Germans first. Forget about all that guarding-flanks nonsense... they have Tigers ferchistsakes!!

Joe

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"I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Polar:

Bravo!!!!

This apparently needs to be said every few days to shake the German players out of their funk.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry, it is said quite a bit more than once every few days!

And, more often than not, said to someone who is not a "German Player" to begin with.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is beginning to get so that it is difficult to even discuss the issues of German/Allied armor on this board because as soon as you say something might be off in anything other than a pro-German way, people instantly start talking about the uber-tank lobby.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as one of the most important persons reading this BBS (i.e. I have the "power" to change the way the game works) I have to say that I don't see it this way. What I see, more than anything else, is people losing something in a way they don't want to admit, or at least understand, is their fault. There is a counter discussion, and generally the original poster is happy to go away armed with a little more knowledge than he came in with. Only a few threads, on the whole, fall into the "über German Tank" category. And I think it is only natural that it be pointed out that there are unrealistic expectations at work, since they are quite real and quite common (reinforced by a long standing culture of fascination with German military achievements, especially here in the USA)

Out of all the "I lost x and want you to change y" situations posted here, only SOME of them are vehicle based. One recent thread (i.e. active as of last night) was about flame thrower effectiveness. This is probably the 10th time it has been brought up, and about the 10th time the original poster left happy with new found knowledge of how to use FTs to better effect. But the original assumption of most of these threads (certainly not all) is that the tactics aren't the issue. These discussions are both healthy and necessary.

I think the problem is that most of the technically based vehicle/gun debates that have cropped up here have to do with German equipment. I would say that vast and overwhelming majority of them are initially argued in favor of making the German stuff, often with no initial scientific basis, better or the Allied stuff weaker. If someone wished to prove me right/wrong, there is the Search function which I am sure will back me up even after a cursory look

JoePrivate wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>These vague references and innuendos of German only players and their 'influence' doesn't sync with the overall impression and is just a bit much for any intelligent person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the vast majority of gamers are interested in playing for enjoyment. Thank God But the more you go into competitive play, the more you will find people that fit the previous description. This has been a part of wargaming since the beginning, so it is no surprise to find it alive and well with CM. Problem is that CM is not necessarily as kind to bad German tactics as some other games. You will also find similar types of people in all other categories of competitive gaming too (like Quake, C&C, WC2, etc.).

But I think you are confusing two different issues. There is the general, pervasive "German stuff is better, and German heavy stuff is invincible" misconceptions of gamers (no thanks to popular histories that portray the Germans this way) vs. the rarer type of poor-sport player that does not play the game for any other reason than to win (which is the type we have been discussing). The two are semi-interrelated, but are definitely different situations.

I guess it just rankles some people (like me) to have people say that neither situation exists. They both do, without any question of a doubt. One can debate how MUCH of this exists, sure, but please don't deny it is there. The Search function of this BBS will clearly prove such a position wrong

Steve

[Jeff Heidman]

I do not deny they exist, I just dispute the idea that pointing it out is useful in any manner, especially when you can never be sure that in any given case it is accurate.

What it comes down to is that claiming someone is a Germanophile cannot help but be an attack on the person, rather than an attack on thier argument. Even if the person in question is a raving German nut, there is still nothing to be gained by pointing it out. Just demolish his misconceptions and be done with it. That saves you from taking the chance of being wrong.

And even more importantly, people need to quit hinting and implying that this is the case whenever they do not like the direction an argument is going. That happens way too often around here, and has the absolutely inevitable result of making further meaningful discussion impossible.

As far as the poor sports go, I do not worry about them. If I ever play them, one of two things will happen:

1. They will win, in which case they probably deserved to win. No problem.

2. I will win and they will bitch up a storm about something or other. Again, no problem, as I simply won't play them again.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do not deny they exist, I just dispute the idea that pointing it out is useful in any manner, especially when you can never be sure that in any given case it is accurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, this is a little different than what your first post on this page implied ("where are these people..."). You might be surprised to know that I agree with your most recent post. I think the "über-accusation" thing should only be dragged out when it is clear the person is arguing solely on this basis.

The vast majority of "hey, BS my King Tiger should have been knocked out!!" postings usually are done more out of ignorance (no insult here) rather than a deliberate pro-German agenda. It would indeed be good for people to note the difference and respond differently to each.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-10-2001).]

[Polar]

Well Jeff... you explain to us how we can explain to them that the failure is both in their tactics and their overblown view of German armor without making it a possible afront to them.

I'm not saying that real discussion here isn't healthy, but it does get old when every person who-jus-happens-to-lose-while-playing-the-Germans comes here and states that Allied Tank X is too powerful.

What I don't get is the statement (can't remember who said it) that the discussing of nerfing or giving steroids to units is fairly evenly balanced here. THat is laughable. I have seen one, ONE conversation about a potentially too weak unit (flamethrower) on the Allied side, hell, the guy could have been talking about a GERMAN flamethrower for all I know (or remember)... but all other 9,999 were born of dead Tiger Tanks and Panther IVs.

How many complaints do we have to read about the Super Grey Hound, Jumbo, Firefly, 60mm mortar, CAS and the poor little Tigers, KIng Tigers, Panther IVs etc. etc. etc. before we can point out that the person just has an inaccurate estimate of German forces, an underblown estimate of Allied forces and an overblown view of themselves as general?

Joe

Ps. Ooops... forgot the "HMG is too weak" thread from a few weeks ago.

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"I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz

[Polar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>These guys only "play to win" (instead of "playing to win") and would gladly not play if they don't get their way with game setup. As far as I know there isn't an equivelant Allied type player.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to start insisting that I always play the Allies in the fog, on wet snow, lots of hills, and elite level Allied forces... then I'm gonna start demanding that the opponent follow the Short 75 rule with green troops... just for the sake of historical accuracey.

Joe

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"I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz