Request: "NScoot" command..

[SirOscar]

Tiger

What command delay are you referring to? I am a platoon leader, I have a squad leader standing in front of me, I say "Sarge take your squad to map cord 'A' Hide there until enemy enters map cord 'B' Fire on enemy and then move to map cord 'C' Wait there for further orders." This seems to me like a very clear order with no delays at all. Now how Sarge actually carries out his orders based on the changing battlefield is another issue but as far as his orders go I can't see where there is delay or micro managing, I think it would be a very clear, understandable order that I can not issue in this game and when I am on the defense I think it's a basic one that needs to be in the game.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by SirOscar:

Tiger

What command delay are you referring to? I am a platoon leader, I have a squad leader standing in front of me, I say "Sarge take your squad to map cord 'A' Hide there until enemy enters map cord 'B' Fire on enemy and then move to map cord 'C' Wait there for further orders."

And if you have a bunch of elite commandoes, they will carry out that command faster than a bunch of conscripts because they don't waste time and know what to do. That is command delay. In the game that is abstracted so that units of different level have different command delays. Tiger is right, with these sorts of commands you have to be careful not to ignore command delay, since that would negate the advantage of having higher quality troops.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

And if you have a bunch of elite commandoes, they will carry out that command faster than a bunch of conscripts because they don't waste time and know what to do. That is command delay. In the game that is abstracted so that units of different level have different command delays. Tiger is right, with these sorts of commands you have to be careful not to ignore command delay, since that would negate the advantage of having higher quality troops.

So the concern you have is that if someone was waiting for 2 turns in ambush on a certain point, shoots (which is a factor of experience, the amount of time it takes to acquire, lay on gun, and fire, which in no way would be affected by this), and immediately takes off, then it somehow negating the effects of having a higher quality troop.

I see your point, I dont agree with it, but I see your point.

But a solution would still exist, command delay could be in effect after the ambush is triggered (i dont agree with that except in the case where the ambush was triggered before the command delay of the order was expired). But right now CM models command delay from the point a new order is given on (unless it hasnt completed the previous order , then the delay goes into effect from the point where the last order was completed).

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[SirOscar]

GermanBoy

Once again I understand that depending on the situation the orders I give maybe partially or totally NOT carried out. I know that when the squad gets to the ambush point and sees a Tiger they may decide to stay hidden, or that the squad may get scared and fire too soon, I know that they may not get to the ambush point in time, I know they may just surrender on the spot, all these things are already built into game and very from unit exp. and battlefield conditions, this is one of things I love about the game. However I still should be able to give a basic order "Fire then move" I can now give the order "Move and fire" Why not the other way around?

[Banshee]

Originally posted by SirOscar:

However I still should be able to give a basic order "Fire then move" I can now give the order "Move and fire" Why not the other way around?

Amen.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Tiger:

And I think it would be perhaps too powerful an addtion to defensive battles. You'd have to make it so it is useable both ways. If ambushed then shoot x then follow my previous set up move routine(s).

It would be as useful both ways as the AMBUSH command is at present.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Banshee:

Amen.

You got that right. The proposed shoot n' scoot "command" would add realism, IMHO.

Currently the tables can be turned on the ambusher somewhat due to the lack of mobility they have for the duration of the turn the ambush is sprung, the command delay before they can move in the next turn.

If there is a way to realibly replicate this behavior now, what is it? I have seen it happen *sparingly* only.

[Robert Mayer]

Seems this is all reducing to the old question of Standard Operating Procedures (SOP), which I think was beaten about for some time ages ago (don't remember exactly when, but I'm sure it's there ).

Some folks would love to be able to set up SOPs for various circumstances; obviously, ambushes would be one of them, for both attacker and defender. Then there are SOPs for encountering AT teams, SOPs for road marches, etc. Other folks think this sort of thing is too gamey, involves too much micromanagement, and isn't realistic because the player has too much "godlike" control over the battle.

Personally, I'd be happy with some TACAI tweaks to make units do what was more or less reasonable within the timeframe of a turn, based on unit type and quality. I'd not be upset with SOPs of the sort discussed here, but I won't cry if they never appear either.

In my experience so far, my ambushes have done ok, and my units behavior on running into ambushes (as handled by the AI) has been pretty darn impressive mostly.

[SirOscar]

Robert Mayer

Nope it's not a SOP problem, simply what I want to do is give an order in reverse of what is allowed already. I can issue a move then engage order but I can't give a engage then move order. Just seems so basic an idea to me, I don't need scripts or micro managing or SOP I just want to be able to order my troops to do something that seems so fundamental, "shoot then run" This is NOT some advanced tactical skill we are talking about. How much simpler can "Fire then get the heck out of there" be?

[Robert Mayer]

Never said it was complicated . And I don't necessarily disagree with you. But I still think it's in the same ball park as SOPs--we're trying to give our units instructions to take action X when even Y occurs.

[Banshee]

The more I am thinking about it, the more I think a slight modification (actually 2)to the ambush command would work.

Change 1) If you have an ambush command set, AND have movement orders, then the movement orders (and it's command delay). Wont go into effect until the ambush is triggered. You can add the pause command in to have a unit hang around for a longer periond of time if you wish.

Change 2) Ambush points should be able to be set at long ranges than 300 meters. For the obvious reasons that you would want an engagement for thin skinned armor to be as far away as possible (I doubt Marders got very close to the enemy if they could avoid it!).

Keep the feedback coming! I hope BTS could provide some guidance (i.e. is it possible, and if so when could it be put in (patch, cm2, etc))

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[This message has been edited by Banshee (edited 01-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Banshee (edited 01-26-2001).]

[SuperSlug]

What you guys are taking about here is scripting. What CM2 or later... needs is the ability for players to script how the TAC AI handles how your troops behave.

As a player you could create your own shoot and scoot command and implement it anytime you wanted to. That would leave BTS out of the picture and you would be responsible for getting your troops killed. The troops would keep there performance charateristics, i.e. speed, fire power, only there behavior would change.

The best CM players would have the best implemeted scripts.

This could then logically be extended to include the Strategic AI.

I mentioned all of this in Tigers Stupid TAC AI thread. (Tigers not stupid he thinks the TAC AI is).

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I'd rather die sleeping like my grandfather,

than screaming like his passengers.

[This message has been edited by SuperSlug (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Banshee]

No this isnt a pro-scripting thread. I was asking for a small change to the existing system to improve realism and playability (which are both already excellent).

Scripting is not going to happen (already said by BTS), so I dont want this thread to turn into a scripting argument.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Banshee]

OT: I know what SOP's are in the military but what games implemented them, and how did they do so ?

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Banshee:

No this isnt a pro-scripting thread. I was asking for a small change to the existing system to improve realism and playability (which are both already excellent).

Scripting is not going to happen (already said by BTS), so I dont want this thread to turn into a scripting argument.

EGAD scripting would be hell:

//start: script name- infantrytakesdump.srt

if armor(val<171, rng>60) then execute "runlikehell.sop"

if armor(val<171) and (atw<0) then execute "shootgrenade.sop" else execute "runlikehell.sop"

if infantry(fpval<80) then ambush else execute "runlikehell.sop"

......

Take you 12 hours to do a turn.

[Tiger]

it would be made even better if the PAUSE command allowed for X number of seconds of fire before the people leave.

This is scripting. If "x" happens then "a".

If "y" happens then "b"

i.e. if pause(x seconds) then fire (y number of times) then reverse (a) or stay put (.

Now if there was no attempt to get around the command delay inherent in all the game's commands this would be a good command to have. Now for some units, depending on exp, the command delay is upwards of 20 seconds. Banshee wants the countdown for the command delay (i.e when the unit begins reversing) to start as soon as the ambush is sprung, which is great but....

However I still say you're going to run into problems that the ai will not be able to account for, such as backing away from your ambush point right into the line of fire of something else. And I don't think this could be handled by the ai until the next engine rewrite.

Good idea for the next engine rewrite though.

*Tiger*

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Tiger:

This is scripting. If "x" happens then "a".

If "y" happens then "b"

i.e. if pause(x seconds) then fire (y number of times) then reverse (a) or stay put (.

At no point did I ask for scripting. Right now the AMBUSH command allows you to :

1) Set an Ambush point

2) add pauses

3) move to a new point with the ambush point still set (i.e. dont fire unless something is in your ambush zone)

All I am asking for is that the pauses and move commands dont go into effect until the ambush is sprung. I proposed it in a new command rather than a modified AMBUSH command because some people might still like the way the AMBUSH command works (since it is a way to make vehicles and men move without wasting your ammo on distant targets, more of a kludge to get around the AI's tendency for shooting ammo at ineffective distances).

Originally posted by Tiger:

However I still say you're going to run into problems that the ai will not be able to account for, such as backing away from your ambush point right into the line of fire of something else. And I don't think this could be handled by the ai until the next engine rewrite.

I dont understand how this is a problem, the AI would handle "backing into the line of fire of something else" the way it would noremally. i.e. if you had a hunt command it would stop and fire, if you had a fast move command it would get the hell out of their, etc.. This is NOT an issue that would count against the command itself.

You could make the SAME argument against the MOVE, FAST MOVE, HUNT, and REVERSE commands. "Oh there is situations in FAST MOVE where the AI wont react the way we want, so we shouldnt have FAST MOVE until the AI is tweaked"

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

EGAD scripting would be hell:

//start: script name- infantrytakesdump.srt

if armor(val<171, rng>60) then execute "runlikehell.sop"

if armor(val<171) and (atw<0) then execute "shootgrenade.sop" else execute "runlikehell.sop"

if infantry(fpval<80) then ambush else execute "runlikehell.sop"

......

Take you 12 hours to do a turn.

To reiterate, at no point did I ask for scripting! this isnt about scripting!!

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[SirOscar]

Banshee

I think it's even easier then adding a new command or modifying current ones. If I set an order to move then hide, the AI does NOT hide then move, it's a sequential order. the unit will move to where I told it to then hide. I just can't see why we can't set a series of orders to be carried out in the order we give them. Thus I would select the unit set move to a certain point, hide, set ambush at certain point(all of this we can do now) then add a move command. At which point the unit(barring exp and battlefield conditions) would move to a point, hide, ambush THEN move. These are BASIC orders that any commander on a battlefield could realistically give and expect to be carried out.

[Banshee]

Originally posted by SirOscar:

Banshee

I think it's even easier then adding a new command or modifying current ones. If I set an order to move then hide, the AI does NOT hide then move, it's a sequential order. the unit will move to where I told it to then hide. I just can't see why we can't set a series of orders to be carried out in the order we give them. Thus I would select the unit set move to a certain point, hide, set ambush at certain point(all of this we can do now) then add a move command. At which point the unit(barring exp and battlefield conditions) would move to a point, hide, ambush THEN move. These are BASIC orders that any commander on a battlefield could realistically give and expect to be carried out.

I think we just need a weigh in from BTS on the feasability of the option. SInce they are close to the code they could give us a feel as to what is possible with the smallest amount of coding. I am trying to get the effect I want with as little change as possible.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Tiger]

Thus I would select the unit set move to a certain point, hide, set ambush at certain point(all of this we can do now) then add a move command. At which point the unit(barring exp and battlefield conditions)would move to a point, hide, ambush THEN move.

Don't forget to have the unit knit a sweater and make some coffee while it's at it

Seems like your trying to do stuff that can already be done with the current commands, all except start moving after the ambusher shoots "x" number of shots, etc. etc. You're also assuming the AI can keep track of this many different "command-trees" for *every* unit in the game that can possibly be ambushing at a given time during every turn of the game (every unit). Try and keep it more simple possibly i.e., none of this "go to spot, target pre-arranged ambush point, hide, wait for enemy to trigger ambush, move to pre-designated spot.... etc etc.; make it when the ambush occurs, begin command-delay count-down to one of the regular "move-type" commands set like normal by the player, w/o waiting till beginning of next turn before issuing a command. Of course this also may have its own problems depending on how easy it is to program w/o breaking something else.

*Tiger*

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Tiger:

Try and keep it more simple possibly i.e., none of this "go to spot, target pre-arranged ambush point, hide, wait for enemy to trigger ambush, move to pre-designated spot.... etc etc.;

SirOscar is asking for orders to be followed chronologically. Which would be a nice feature, but I was asking for a much smaller change.

Originally posted by Tiger:

make it when the ambush occurs, begin command-delay count-down to one of the regular "move-type" commands set like normal by the player, w/o waiting till beginning of next turn before issuing a command.

Yep! This is what I am asking for, once the ambush is triggered the movement commands go into effect. A combination of command delays and the use of PAUSE would actually give it all the flexibility a player would need.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Tiger]

Don't forget the AI would also have to be programmed to make use of this new feature in player vs computer games. Not saying it's not doable but perhaps only for CM2, since CM1 is basically "done". Didn't Steve mention somewhere else about CM2 having a Fall 2001 release hopefully?

I don't think it would affect balance too much, except that as per your original post, soft-skinned vehicles might gain more survivability. Tanks would be a litle too slow to make it likely they would make fast "getaways" in the ambush role. Could help AT teams/ Tank hunter teams in CM2.

*Tiger*

[SirOscar]

Tiger

Yep you could not have an endless number of command strings. Just two would be fine with me. Right now in game I can say "move here then hide". That is a TWO step order, what I would like to see is if I am already in place and hiding why can't I issue "ambush, then move to here command"? The unit would then fire on the first unit entering the ambush area and then move to where I told it, now it could get pinned by return fire etc. but if it could it should follow the 2 step command I gave it. As it stands now I can not give such a simple order. Am I wrong to think that fire and run is a very basic order a commander should be able to give? If so how is it any more complex then to give it a move command, with many way points, then hide? Move, hide(can be done now) Fire, move(can not be done now). I just don't see how this is complex, is micro managing, requires scripts.

[Tiger]

Ordering a unit to move to a point, set up an ambush, hide, fire upon first enemy entering ambush, fire x number of shots while paused, immediately begin other command movements upon ambush being sprung, etc. is too much micromanagement.

These strings of commands would require a bit of scripting or sop's, as others have suggested. In your posts you refer to being a platoon leader and that you can order your men to do these things, it should be do-able in the game and with no command delay. Unfortunately artificial intelligence does not find this quite so easy as a human would. You can either accept this limitation or accept adding more player control which requires scripts for more the complicated series of actions.

Simply allowing a player to add a movement order, to begin once the ambush is sprung, would be cool, but it should be kept simple so the computer AI can handle it w/o breaking other rules conventions already in the game.

IMHO, there has to be a bit of non-control in a game such as this, based on the limitations imposed by the fact that it is a game, and that you're not really god floating above the battlefield on his magic carpet. Don't forget that this is WWII and every unit does not have a direct radio-link to "you". That's where the "tac ai comes in. We wouldn't need AI if you had complete control of everything.

*Tiger*

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 01-30-2001).]