bobo Posted June 26, 2001 Share Posted June 26, 2001 Greetings, Back when CM was first being worked on we were treated with Penetration diagrams in multi colors. There is one if the FAQ that I was just reading which reminded me about them. I seem to recall that there was a comment that BTS would include them on the CD if there was room. There wasn't of course. I was wondering if BTS might post them for download either all at once (HUGE) or in more downloadable friendly chunks. Anyone else interested in these? Thanks, Bobo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted June 26, 2001 Share Posted June 26, 2001 Yeah, I've put up a query on these once or twice with no response. I'd love to see them too... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted June 26, 2001 Share Posted June 26, 2001 On the Penetration Charts Mace would get a Grammy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 26, 2001 Share Posted June 26, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PawBroon: On the Penetration Charts Mace would get a Grammy...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ROTF! It's funny how Mace is the - ahem - butt of everyone's jokes lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted June 26, 2001 Share Posted June 26, 2001 I dont think it is proper to ask about penetration charts here, this is a family board. Take your perversion elsewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 Seriously, I'd like to see these charts too, so I'm bumping it. Anyone? Bueller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 I want them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 Hey All, I can't give you the charts, even though I'd be interested in getting a hold of them as well. However, I am working on an Armor Penetration Calculator program that will take the CM unit details data for armor and gun values and output a set of results that can be viewed to evaluate what your chances are say of your Sherman 76mm going up against that JagdPanther. I already have a preliminary user interface done and what you will be able to do is input range, hull/turret angles, and then select info you want displayed (actual armor penetration, or calculate in "reverse" to find max. effect engagement range). Hit the calculate botton and voila. All sorts of data. You get results of what potential hit by your Sherman might do against all of the exposed armor faces of the JagdPanther for both the AP and Tungsten ammo types. You also see simultaneously displayed what the JagdPanther is going to do to your lowly Shermy if it gets hit. So basically what APC will do is give you a way to make some real use of all the unit detail gun/armor info instead of trying to sit there pulling up one screen looking at the units gun data, then trying to pull up the target units details to look at its armor values, and then sitting there scratching your head trying to figure out what might happen. I've actually done this and gone through all the hand calc's and it is a tedious process. So, I can tell you having it automated would in my view be an extremely useful tool to have around. This is a project for my Masters Degree program and I'm having some trouble selling the review board on the idea that this is a worthwhile endeavor. So I would be interested in any/all feedback from you guys as to interest in having something like this done. What it would mean to you is if I get a lot of feedback that you folks want this, then I can easier convince them to accept the project and get going on it and get it done. If I cannot convince them, then I'm going to have to do something else for my project which means I'll most likely have no time to tinker w/ getting the Armor Penetration Calculator done! Which would suck because I really want to do it. So, everyone let me know what you think and how much this might help you in playing the game! Thanks. Mike aka Mikester [ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Mike D ] [ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Mike D ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike D: You get results of what potential hit by your Sherman might do against all of the exposed armor faces of the JagdPanther for both the AP and Tungsten ammo types. You also see simultaneously displayed what the JagdPanther is going to do to your lowly Shermy if it gets hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the second part shouldn't be too hard..."Chances of [insert German vehicle here] killing Sherman 99.99%" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 Hi Wolfpack, Yep, for pretty much anything going up against the long barrel 88mm gun I might as well just hard code in the message, "You're DOOOOOOMED...." Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted June 27, 2001 Share Posted June 27, 2001 Well, I think any type of chart would be a big improvement over what we have. As it is now I just hunt,contact an enemy tank, point my gun and close my eyes hoping for the best. If I had a table like either of these I could actually know what to look out for and what to avoid. I really think it would be great if they are what I'm thinking they are. Bet I'd lose a lot more tanks. So yes ! I'd be very interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 Our book has equations that can be used to relate penetration to range, and armor slope effect to angle. This is what has to be done to prepare a penetration calculator. We also have an Excel spreadsheet that takes input in form of a gun/ammo number, a range and the armor thickness/angle and uses "vlookup" functions to do all the intermediate steps, and the computer even rolls the dice against a penetration probability curve and determines if the hit penetrates. A penetration calculator for CM is very do-able using a spreadsheet, but may not provide enough of a challenge for a masters program. I have armor resistance multiplier programs on my programmable hand calculator, and it is very simple once slope effect is tied into the T/D ratio (armor thickness divided by projectile diameter). The problem is converting data to equations to automate process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 Correction. In my above comment I meant to say " I bet I would lose a lot less tanks". I've just got to stop drinking at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 U.S. tankers often did not know much about their weapons against panzer armor. 76mm armed tanks in France were told Tiger was mincemeat at 1000 yards, actual range more like 50 yards. PzKpfw IVH has face-hardened front hull armor so comparing homogeneous penetration of Sherman 75mm to IVH armor underestimates penetration probability and range. Same thing for Panther side armor, which is face-hardened on D and A versions. There are combat reports where 75mm Shermans kept on bouncing APCBC off Panther glacis for shot after shot. For whatever reason they probably thought a hit should be a kill. In the report where the 75mm Sherman kept hitting the Panther glacis, the Panther crew realized the fixation of their attacker and rotated the turret to take on another threat while the first Sherman kept on scoring hit after hit (to no avail). One of the great things about CM is that one may have an inkling of what is a vulnerable range and armor angle, but you can't be sure. In armor miniatures you can position Tigers so 75mm Sherman are 3° degrees outside the penetration cone, in CM this is near impossible to do with high precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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