Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Andrew, it would be even more funny to see the expression on the face of the Allied player if the Germans got a price break on something like a Jagdtiger and managed to field two of them while on the defensive using a huge, flat map with next to no trees Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I do not want to be the Allied player in that game. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Sorry, there is something in the system BTS proposes I don't understand. If some vehicle get a bargain cost, that means that the vehicle could cost less than the actual cost, i.e., the one related to his combat value? If this is the way it works, then some QB will be unbalanced... But if there is a down limit, the vehicle real combat value related cost, then have more sense. Thanks for any explanation on this and sorry by my English Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Argie El sistema será opcional. Ambas caras podrán escoger de " buenos repartos ". (Apesadumbrado mi español es tan malo. Mi esposa es del Brasil y estoy muy oxidado de portugeuse de discurso.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Ariel, The cost reduction will be based on the "rare" price, which might be a LOT more than the "base" cost. Check out some of my examples a few pages back where the Tiger is listed as 1073 points. A cost reduction would be based on that, not on the base cost. Games should be no more or less unballanced than they are now. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: When you did, it was only a handfull unless the unit was fresh and newly committed for offensive action. When on the defense they were usually parcelled out, mostly out of dire necessity and lack of operational vehicles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My recollection from Otto Carius' excellent memoir, "Tigers in the Mud", agrees with Steve's assertion. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Somewhere I have the day by day account of this drive (Heavy Detachment Bäke) ... I wish I could remember which book/study I have that did the day by day. Just looked through a couple and didn't find it. I'll give another look some other day<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve, please do, I'd love to learn what this reference is! While I don't disagree with PzKpfw 1 / John Waters' figures (look to be out of Schneider's excellent "Tigers in Combat"), Fiest & Culver in "Tiger I" state that sPzAbt 503 had 34 Tigers when they entered Regiment Bäke (the Panther battalion had 46 tanks they say). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Also keep in mind that certain SS and WH formations had an organic Tiger Company as part of their standard TO&E. The two Tigers fighting north of Falaise were 12th SS IIRC, and not from one of the independent units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My understanding is that, as far as organic Tigers, basically for the Waffen-SS it was the 1st SS Panzer Division "LAH", 2nd SS "Das Reich", and 3rd SS "Totenkopf", and for the Wehrmacht it was the Panzergrenadier Division "Großdeutschland". I believe the two Tigers were not organic to the 12 SS "HJ", but were from sSSPzAbt 101 (Wittmann's unit) which was a unit of the 1st SS Panzerkorps. The two Panzer Divisions in the Korps were the 1st SS "LAH" and the 12th SS "HJ" and Tigers from sSSPzAbt 101 were attached to "HJ" and fought with the "HJ" Panthers against the operation "Totalize" Canadians. The sSSPzAbt 102 was also in the area ... I would, of course, enjoy hearing if I'm off base on my understanding. As far as the optional rarity implementation, I like what I hear from Steve. --Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Argie El sistema será opcional. Ambas caras podrán escoger de " buenos repartos ". (Apesadumbrado mi español es tan malo. Mi esposa es del Brasil y estoy muy oxidado de portugeuse de discurso.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, Slapdragon, I understand your English better than your Spanish, but don't be worried for that We have a lot of common background: I'm an Avid's non linear editor, I use After effects and Final Cut as well and I have this nice G4 to post here Thanks for your help. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Ariel, The cost reduction will be based on the "rare" price, which might be a LOT more than the "base" cost. Check out some of my examples a few pages back where the Tiger is listed as 1073 points. A cost reduction would be based on that, not on the base cost. Games should be no more or less unballanced than they are now. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, Steve. Is clear now Anyway, the separate points system proposed seems to be more flexible to me. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talorc Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I would have to say that I am coming around to steve's version as well. I originally though rare AFV's would ALWAYS cost more than their relative combat value would indicate. Eg if a tiger is twice as good as a PzIV - it should be twice as much. I then though the "rarity" modifier would be put on top of that. But if you can get a price break, and the price of a Tiger is LESS than normal this should work OK. Every now and then you will still see rare AFV's. Is it your intention that forces picked using the rarity system will be balanced in Combat Power? Also will you be modelling the tendency of the Waffen SS units to get the "choicer" equipment earlier than most Heer units? Also I think this system should be optional. Please fix or do somefink BTS. ------------------ Talorc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Keith, I'll find that study somewhere. I think it is in one of my Dupuy repots prepared for the Army. Not sure how, or even IF, you can get a hold of these anymore. I bought them from Dupuy's grandson about 6 years ago. Boring to even the hardest hardcore wargamer, but damned cool in my opinion Yes, I think you are correct that the Tigers came form the 101st. If not, certainly the 102nd. I just did a quick check and, although I din't find the exact battle I was thinking of, there were 17 Tigers from BOTH battalions available for combat in the area. Ariel, glad you found some answers Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-09-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Keith the returns are for Bake's total force that is 503 & PR 11 combined I should have clarified that. If anyone has any of the Novastar add on disks for SP & is interested in the Tscherkassy pocket or the Korsun Shevchenkovskii operation as the Russians refer to it. I wrote a detailed background on Bake's reliefe operations useing German & Russian material as the scenerios were all concerning Bake's Regt's actions, the scens were made useing Russian maps by Bruce White. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 01-09-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Keith the returns are for Bake's total force that is 503 & PR 11 combined I should have clarified that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That brings up a question for me. I checked Schneider's "Tigers in Combat I", and on pp. 160-161 (1994 edition, I understand it is/will be out in a 2nd edition) it shows the figures you listed. My understanding is that these are the number of Tigers assigned, but I may be mistaken. (For instance, after he mentions the loss of 4 Tigers & 4 Panthers on 12 Feb '44, Schneider subtracts 4 from the previous 66 to arrive at 62, p. 161) Could you please check for me and see if those numbers you have are for the number of Tigers assigned to sPzAbt 503? Schneider has sPzAbt 503 with 34 Tigers (& PzRegt 11 w/ 46 Panthers) when Regiment Bäke was formed on 19/20 Jan '44. The almost day by day very brief summary then pretty much agrees with Steve's point, as far as operational Tigers (looks like 13 on 1 Feb, 18 on 4 Feb, 13 on 13 Feb [with 12 Panthers], 9 on 16 Feb, 8 on 17 Feb [6 Panters]). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Keith, I'll find that study somewhere. I think it is in one of my Dupuy repots prepared for the Army. Not sure how, or even IF, you can get a hold of these anymore. I bought them from Dupuy's grandson about 6 years ago. Boring to even the hardest hardcore wargamer, but damned cool in my opinion <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, Steve, I appreciate it! These do sound cool, and even if they're unavailable *sigh* I'd like to add them to my growing list of books to be on the lookout for. --Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Keith, I realy can't comment at this time I have always assumed Bake's Panthers were included in the returns. 503 had a total of 25 Tiger E as of 20.12.43, on 03.01.44 503 recieved 45 new Tiger E. Schneider gives 503 a total of 69 as of the same date. On 20.01.44 Schneider lists 503's total strengh as 34 Tigers with Pz.Regt 11 returning 46 Panthers. Then on 01.03.44 after Bakes Regt was disbanded we see 503 with a return total of 67 Tiger of which 24 are operational. I'll dig into this more L8r whern I have time. Yes it is being reprinted as it contained a plethora of errors, that have been corrected since its original publication, the corrections were on Fedorowicz's site for DL/printing. Regards, John Waters [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 01-09-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie: Well, Slapdragon, I understand your English better than your Spanish, but don't be worried for that We have a lot of common background: I'm an Avid's non linear editor, I use After effects and Final Cut as well and I have this nice G4 to post here Thanks for your help. Ariel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My Spanish is Cubano learned in Tampa, and messed up by speaking bad Portuguese to my wife. I am impressed on the AVID. I did AVID in 1995. Now I use Final Cut for everything. Still, I remember the days when I had a Grass Valley 1680, 6 One inch machines, and a Chyron CG! Life is nice now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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