Photography Mission: Urban Terrain In CM

[Guest Germanboy]

David, and excellent post and very nice pictures. I also think you raise a lot of good points on how the scenario editor can be improved (some of them may not be too difficult, e.g. adding tiles with walls at the edge). Look forward to your Edinburgh pictures - get some of the Grassmarket in here

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Basebal351]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

That said, you've only seen one of the pictures I took for artistic purposes

David<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And a fine picture of a PATROL sign it was, David! An excellent example of the beauty to be found in everyday life, and in road signs everywhere!

*Sniff...I'm touched...really, I am...Sniff*

-Jim

[Lawyer]

Nice pictures and nice ideas. I can see where living there makes a difference in your view of CM battlefield presentation.

Thanks

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Only the Lawyer knows what Evil lurks in the minds of men....

[David Aitken]

Germanboy wrote:

> Look forward to your Edinburgh pictures - get some of the Grassmarket in here

Ah, good idea. There's a brilliant road at the northeast corner that's stuck in my mind. A nice nightmare for BTS – narrow, curving, sloping road hemmed in by tall buildings – pretty much sums up everything the engine can't handle. =)

Basebal351 wrote:

> And a fine picture of a PATROL sign it was, David! An excellent example of the beauty to be found in everyday life, and in road signs everywhere!

Yes, and I expect to see them in CM2! =D

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Germanboy wrote:

> Look forward to your Edinburgh pictures - get some of the Grassmarket in here

Ah, good idea. There's a brilliant road at the northeast corner that's stuck in my mind. A nice nightmare for BTS – narrow, curving, sloping road hemmed in by tall buildings – pretty much sums up everything the engine can't handle. =)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the one I mean, I remember walking that one up during New Year's three years ago. And have a tea at Kinnel's while there!

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Splinty]

Great pics David. I think one thing CM needs to add is terraced terrain and high stone walls, both of which were in great abundance in central Germany (Aschaffenburg)where I was stationed.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

A nice nightmare for BTS – narrow, curving, sloping road hemmed in by tall buildings – pretty much sums up everything the engine can't handle. =)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I finally got my pictures in position - I think they pretty much boil down to your comment above.

Below is one road out of town (toward the A3, if you care). You can see a twisty road leading uphill with two roads turning left (foreground and one barely visible about middle of the picture) and one right. The two to the left slope down and the one on the right slopes up. In both cases, hemmed in by buildings.

Main point - buildings on slopes REAL close to road.

More extreme example of the above. Just behind the brewery (where I have NOT spend many long weekend evenings with my uncle at the Stammtisch only to stagger home, trying to uproot street signs to take home to my aunt) you see a building with a steep road (near side) and a steep walkway(far side). In the background, you can see a building clearly embedded in the slope.

Last example of the above. It's not as obvious how steep this alley is, but it is a more extreme example of "buildings on slopes". And it's VERY narrow. Also, you can see on the right foreground the beginning of a "bocage" extending behind the photographer directly adjacent to the road. (I thought I had a better shot of this, but I can't find it). So if anybody tells you that you can't put bocage in Germany, I'll send you the picture!

This shot really doesn't address any real mapping issues, but it shows the iron fencing that's been discussed. I have no way of knowing if it is original equipment, but as this is the home of the Count (and this village did not lack for "true believers" in the 30's aond early 40's) I imagine if anybody's iron fencing was going to be "appropriated", they might give this one a miss.

(Now the moment of truth when I find out if this image embedding worked..It didn't - let's try again ... Jeez! Who do you have to know!! Once more with feeling ... )

[This message has been edited by dNorwood (edited 01-02-2001).]

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dNorwood:

I finally got my pictures in position - I think they pretty much boil down to your comment above.

(Now the moment of truth when I find out if this image embedding worked..It didn't - let's try again ... Jeez! Who do you have to know!! Once more with feeling ... )

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I give. I stored the pictures at

//communities.msn.com/Rudenhausen/files.dca

and referenced them with the standard

" [ img ][ /img ] "

(w/o the spaces) with no luck - little help?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dNorwood:

OK, I give. I stored the pictures at

//communities.msn.com/Rudenhausen/files.dca

and referenced them with the standard

" [ img ][ /img ] "

(w/o the spaces) with no luck - little help?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.msnusers.com/Rudenhausen/files/rudenWolf.jpg that is the link I have for one of the pictures - mefinks it is either the capitalisation, or maybe a missing "/"? Can't access it b/c I have no passport.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[David Aitken]

I would suggest that the "passport" (whatever it is) is the reason why the pictures aren't working. If you can't access the pictures on the pages, I don't see how you could link to them. Is this service not meant for storing files, rather than posting images?

If you want to e-mail me the pictures, I can host them for you.

[Chupacabra]

Er, I can see the pictures just fine.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[David Aitken]

Do you have a "passport" Jon? (I'm damned if I'm signing up to any Microsoft scam just to access their web pages.)

Edit: My browser is trying to connect to login.passport.com for every image, which suggests you need to be signed up to view them. Goody, I can have Microsoft watching me wherever I go.

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 01-02-2001).]

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Do you have a "passport" Jon? (I'm damned if I'm signing up to any Microsoft scam just to access their web pages.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yeah, guess I do. Hrm, I'm actually fairly surprised that even Microsoft would restrict access to material like that.

Chalk another one up for the Great Satan, I guess.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[David Aitken]

They're just trying to push their new "online wallet" rubbish by forcing you to sign up to see stuff other people post. Don't fall for it, people! They just want to know exactly where you go and what you buy on the internet!

dNorwood, feel free to e-mail me the pictures at david@reckoning.demon.co.uk and I'll post them Big Brother-free. =)

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Don't fall for it, people! They just want to know exactly where you go and what you buy on the internet!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Microsoft wants to know how much amputee Goth porn I buy? Dang, I could've just told them.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Microsoft wants to know how much amputee Goth porn I buy? Dang, I could've just told them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You pay?

Anyway, sorry for the rigamarole [sp?] I've emailed the pictures to David (the other David) and when he gets back to me I'll edit the message and you'll all see clearly that it wasn't worth it.

[David Aitken]

Back to the top, so everyone can see dNorwood's piccies. =)

[David Aitken]

Back by popular demand, welcome to the second edition of European Architecture To Make Game Programmers Weep! Our intrepid correspondent, armed with a Nikon Coolpix 990, on Friday ventured into the heart of the ancient city of Edinburgh with the sole objective of revealing just how poorly suited Combat Mission's engine is to simulating the kind of urban terrain common to Europe and Russia. BTS, please fix or do somefink!!

The first thing I did was to borrow a Fiesler Storch from the Luftwaffe and effect a daring reconnaissance mission in the skies over peacetime Edinburgh. This is what my target area looks like from above:

I wouldn't have posted this, as I don't want to turn the thread into a guided tour of Edinburgh, but for the fact that it's a very good example of what I'm getting at. This is the city centre. Princes Street Gardens is a large depression which used to be a loch (lake), and it forms a barrier between the New Town and the Old Town. Compare the street layout to the north, which was constructed in Victorian times, with that to the south, which is many hundreds of years old.

The New Town is a rigid grid layout not unlike that common to the USA. It should be noted, however, that it is actually built on a slope – George Street marks the top of a ridge line, and the ground drops south to Princes Street, and north, over a longer distance, all the way down to the Firth of Forth (River Forth). Even this situation is a bit beyond what CM is capable of, with buildings side by side going down a slope.

The Old Town is fascinating. It is a miscellany of narrow streets, twisting over and under each other, all hemmed in by tall buildings which very often front onto different streets at different levels. I have concentrated my study in this area, as it brilliantly exemplifies everything CM cannot do.

Before I get into my main sections, there is quite an appropriate issue to deal with. Many of the oldest towns and cities in this part of the world propagated around a port or a castle, centres of Roman or medieval activity. Edinburgh is an example of the latter case. Where do you build a castle? In an easily defensible location with good visibility (remember we're thinking in terms of swords and horses, not the SAS and ballistic missiles). Edinburgh Castle is built on top of a volcanic plug.

It is surrounded by near-vertical cliffs on three sides. If you wanted big cliffs, you wouldn't think to look in the middle of a city, but that's what Europe is like. Currently there is no 'cliff' terrain in CM, although this can be approximated with steep ground and the 'rough' tile.

In the lee of the volcanic plug (ie. the ground which was shielded from the glaciers which shaped the terrain) is the castle esplanade. This is essentially a forecourt and the entrance to the castle. The main compound has a drawbridge, but the esplanade is also protected, by a high wall.

Notice how the wall forms the crest of a steep ridge line. (The curved structure in front of the main living quarters is a gun platform with cannon ports.)

On the opposite side of the city centre is Calton Hill, with some more nice examples of buildings right on the edge of cliffs.

Notice on the very right, the cliff has been complemented by a large wall. This kind of feature is alien to CM.

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[David Aitken]

1. STREETS

The New Town was planned and executed in a modern fashion. The Old Town, like all ancient settlements, developed over hundreds of years. Modern roads mark thoroughfares which were not devised by city planners, but were simply the most logical routes over the terrain taken by the eariest inhabitants of the area. Buildings are not distinct and uniform – they follow the winding roads, adapt to the shape of the terrain, and are so dense that they practically merge into each other. Narrow closes (alleys) disappear into the edifice with little indication of where they lead.

The Lawnmarket forms the top end of the Old Town's main street, otherwise known as the Royal Mile, with the castle at the top and Holyrood Palace at the bottom.

This is 'wide' by Old Town standards. The street is sloped all the way, and does not form a straight line. (Tactical note: the winding street allows occupants of certain buildings a clear LOS of large stretches without having to lean out of their window.) Notice that adjacent buildings have floors on different levels (eg. on the right, above the shop with the dark green façade, the lower floors of the building do not align with those on either side). This clearly suggests that we have a tall, thin, five or six storey building which forms part of a row, but which is not connected with adjacent buildings. Consider the difficulties this would present in trying to move up the street during combat, even when 'mouseholing'. The sloping ground also necessitates the continual realignment of 'ground floor' without breaking the continuity, a technique impossible to achieve in CM.

The Cowgate runs parallel to the Royal Mile, but at a lower level. There are several tiny closes piercing through the buildings to link the Cowgate with the streets on either side.

This is a more dramatic example of street sloping. Compare the cobbled road with the windows on the adjacent buildings – there is a whole floor's difference from one end to the other. The close actually enters the street above through an archway in the buildings.

An even narrower close, squeezing through some very imposing buildings. Again, access to the street above is through an archway. The combination of tall, thin buildings and steep, narrow pathways is alien to CM.

Another narrow close hemmed in by very tall buildings. (An item of tactical interest here: a kink in the façade creates a column of windows set at an angle, with perfect LOS down the street.)

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[David Aitken]

This is a very interesting picture.

This is the junction between Candlemaker Row and George IV Bridge. Referring to the map (bottom middle), you will see that the bridge in question passes over the Cowgate, while Candlemaker Row takes you down to the lower level. The main issue here is the block of buildings between the three streets – they form a triangle, with the roads sloping up on one side, down on the other, and level at the back, and the up-sloping road passing over the level one. Very complex, and totally beyond the capabilities of CM.

I will come to the bridge later, but just now, look up the road on the right – from this angle you would never guess it actually passes over a bridge. This is an important issue – very often two roads can cross over each other, but each road is a world of its own, and you're not aware of what's going on on the other road. This is very different from a simple bridge of the CM variety, where it might as well be a large plank of wood.

Cockburn Street (pronounced without the 'ck'), an S-shaped road leading down from the north side of the Royal Mile. It slopes and curves, and the buildings follow suit. Think about the shape of the buildings as seen from above – the map will give you some ideas. They aren't definite, self-contained buildings – they're all kinds of different shapes and merge in with each other, following the roads and filling out the available space.

This is also similar to the Candlemaker Row example; behind the rearmost buildings you see here is North Bridge (pictures later), which passes over Market Street on the left – so this block of buildings fronts onto a straight, level street on one side, a sloping, curving street on the other, and backs onto a third street at a lower level. (Tactical note: notice the building on the right with a turret on the corner. This is a more recent design, but is based on medieval castles, which were built this way for military purposes – providing a lookout post to cover potential blind spots, a purpose which they would still serve in modern times, although being much more susceptible to modern weapons.)

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[David Aitken]

And now, by special request of Andreas: Victoria Street! On investigation I found this to be far more interesting than I had previously realised. I shall start with a rather nice model provided by the cooncil (to be found on The Mound).

On the left, Johnston Terrace, from where I took my pictures of the castle. On the very right, George IV Bridge passing over the Cowgate (and disappearing into oblivion, according to the model). The spiral street in the middle is Victoria Street, and it's even better than it looks here.

Here we are at the bottom. How does it strike you? The tenements up above look a bit out of place – where are they, on the roof? Notice how the curving, sloping street affects the buildings – five storeys at the bottom quickly condenses into three storeys further up. Also notice on the very right, a building with four storeys which actually has more space than the adjacent building with six storeys. The former obviously has high ceilings.

Moving around the corner, the mystery deepens – more buildings built on the rooves of others? Notice how the storey condensation leaves the shops at the top of the hill with only a single storey to play with, and the very curved façade of the building on the right.

Up on the rooftops, we find there is actually a walkway between the two levels of buildings. But what the heck are they doing on the roof?

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[David Aitken]

This picture was taken at the top of Johnston Terrace. The church is in between this street and Victoria Street. The grey building on the left is on the other side of Victoria Street. Starting to make sense? Look closely at the model posted earlier. The ground slopes sharply away from Johnston Terrace, so buildings fronting onto the road are practically falling down the hill. The buildings lining Victoria Street below are at the bottom of the hill. Taking this into account, the builders have seemingly wedged Victoria Street's buildings underneath Johnston Terrace's buildings.

This is the view from Upper Bow (the upper level of Victoria Street) looking back up. The 'side entrance' to the church is a floor down from the front entrance.

These steps take you down to Victoria Street. They are built into the row of buildings. The situation is very strange – what looks like the ground from one side, you realise is actually rooftops from another. Understandably, this kind of sculpting is far beyond what CM is capable of – but at the same time, it is essential to the kind of scenarios that CM seeks to portray. (Notice the railings – being necessary to stop people from falling off buildings, I suspect these are originals.)

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[David Aitken]

2. BRIDGES

As they are currently implemented in CM, bridges are very limited. They must be one of two specific heights, and most importantly, a tile must be reserved at each end for the bridge to run into. This picture nicely illustrates why that is a problem:

This is Waterloo Place (an extension of Princes Street, Edinburgh's main commercial street) crossing over Calton Road. I love it because it is so freakin' huge, and is surrounded by some extremely tall buildings. Again, the buildings' main entrances are on Waterloo Place, but this is actually halfway up. In CM terms, the bridge occupies a single tile, and the four diagonally adjacent tiles are occupied by tall buildings. CM cannot handle bridges in this way, nor does it have such tall, thin buildings. (Notice the ornate structure on top of the bridge instead of a simple railing.)

North Bridge, which crosses over Waverley Station. Not sure why I cut off the north end of the bridge. How this differs from the CM concept of a 'bridge' is obvious. Whereas the arches in a CM bridge are arbitrary, and they don't really matter because the only thing you can put under a bridge is a perpendicular road or river, here the positioning of the piers is crucial.

The spans are much longer than a CM bridge, and there are two or three piers at specific locations in or next to the railway station below. The bridge essentially 'floats', and is largely independent of the station. It does not hug the ground CM-style to the exclusion of all else.

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[David Aitken]

The station is rather interesting in itself. This is the east end, which illustrates how it is not a building, but rather just a large shelter. At either side is a tall wall, and the roof is perspex I think – I suspect it would have been wood or corrugated metal when it was first built. It is held up at regular intervals by iron columns.

This is the west end. Waverley Bridge actually forms part of the roof of the station. It looks relatively modern, but the whole structure dates back to Victorian times and the construction of the New Town. Two large ramps provide vehicular access to the station, to either side of the purple building in the picture. These ramps form yet more of the station roof. Again we have a construction which is different things depending on where you see it from. A roof from below is a bridge or a ramp from above, and again these roadways hover above the ground without affecting what is beneath them.

You might be wondering where I took that picture from. Floating above the railway line? Here is the view in the opposite direction:

This is The Mound. Remember that the railway runs along the bottom of a dry loch; when the New Town was built, debris from the excavations was dumped into the loch, and this 'mound' became a roadway and home to a couple of large buildings. This picture features in my 'bridges' section due to the railway tunnels. Terracing (which I discussed at the beginning of the thread) sets the railway at a lower level from the Gardens on either side, and the tunnel in question is quite short. In tactical terms it would present quite an interesting obstacle. Tunnels, of course, do not feature in CM.

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[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 02-18-2001).]

[David Aitken]

Back to the Cowgate. This is what George IV Bridge, pictured earlier from above, looks like from below:

It's not the kind of obvious bridge found in CM – it merges in with the surrounding buildings to carry one road over another. It would be normal for a minor road to pass over a major road, but in this case it's the other way round – everything is focused on the higher level, and it's not too difficult to overlook the bridge altogether when you're crossing.

Here is another good example of that. King's Bridge, directly below the castle. What bridge?

This one. Rather big, rather wide, and not apparently a bridge when seen from above. Tactically, negotiating such an obstacle would be a different issue from a plain bridge.

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